[eurleif]

So, just to be perfectly clear: you don't believe that people have any moral obligation not to murder each other. But they do have a moral obligation to follow contracts (the government's contract to do what the people want).

[rayiner]

I don't believe in any super natural bases for morality,[1] so I believe that morality arises out of the social contract. Given that, it makes sense to talk about the moral obligations of individuals within a society to each other, but not to talk about one society's obligation to another.

[1] Not just religion, but things like "natural rights" are really supernatural conceptually.

[davidw]

This is a repeat of the other day's conversation (and about 1343243243232 other similar conversations on the internet, which is why we ought to get rid of political articles), but like hell will I "not talk about my obligations" to other human beings that happen to be born with some other passport.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5533155

Edit: looks like someone is sinking these articles off the front page. Good call!

[rayiner]

What do you think is the basis for your obligations to humans that you don't share a government with?

[davidw]

I'm not much for philosophy, so something simple along the lines of believing that I should leave the world a better place than I found it, and there's no reason that should be limited by borders, ethnicity or much else. Also, the idea that I have no obligations to people who are just like me but don't have the same passport is chilling and disturbing in its implications.

Borders are pretty arbitrary things in a lot of cases. There are probably still a few very elderly people alive in the Sud Tirol region of Italy who, as infants, found themselves to be Italian citizens despite not having moved a mile, because Italy managed to beat Austria in WWI. Linguistically, and culturally, they are Austrians in that region (or, in some of the high valleys, Ladin speakers, if we want to start getting into details), and many of them don't really identify with Italy to this day.

[eurleif]

What's the basis for following the social contract being an obligation?

[rayiner]

Biologically? The various chemical signals (shame, fear, regret, etc) that enforce behavioral expectations within groups of humans.

[Pwnguinz]

Did you mean contRact? Or did you actually mean "contact"? You did type it twice, but I'm just making sure... The word "contact" in this context doesn't make sense to me, so please elaborate, if that's the case.

[eurleif]

Thanks, yeah, I meant contracts. I'm on my phone.