[combataircraft]

  - How fast is your app?
  - How productive is your team?
  - How productive is Ember community?
  - How many Ember libraries do exist in Github?
  - How many JavaScript libraries exist in NPM?
  - How many of the NPM libraries can be used in client-side?
  - How robust is to manage Ember dependencies?
  - How simple is to manage Ember dependencies?
  - How easy is to debug an Ember app?
  - Do you set break points ?
  - How easy is to hunt memory leaks in an Ember app?
  - What package manager do you use?
  - What else libraries do you use?
  - Does your code integrate with other code written using Streams, EventEmitters etc?
  - How would you reuse Ember in your backend code?
  - How replaceable is your code?
  - How large is your code?
  - Is using large frameworks a best practice in JS community?
  - Have you seen alternatives like components http://github.com/component ?

[tomdale]

I'm glad that, unlike the previous comment thread, you decided not to refer to Ember as "the North Korea of the JavaScript world."

However, what you're doing here might best be described as presenting a series of "loaded questions." You can find out more about this logical fallacy here: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-question

I'm sorry that you feel the need to attack Ember. If you have any specific complaints, maybe we could discuss them over a beer?

[moe]

He does have a point though (the NK reference is hilarious because it's actually not completely off-base, albeit a little over the top).

I looked at Ember again the other day after a long abstinence and to me it has become frighteningly opaque. Even with my prior Ember-knowledge (before Router and {{outlet}} existed in their current form) I completely failed to make sense of a recent tutorial[1].

I wanted to wire the tutorial up with ember-data and add pagination (nothing too fancy), but a series of undecipherable exceptions stopped me in my tracks before I got either working.

A major problem for me was how everything in the "new" Ember is tightly coupled. No longer can I just make an ArrayController, reference it in my template and populate it with standard javascript until I'm ready to drink more of the kool-aid. Or perhaps I can, but it seems to be an anti-pattern now. None of the (few) newer tutorials does anything like that.

It seems I'm now supposed to jump in head-first. I'm supposed to understand all of Ember before using Ember.

Sadly that didn't work out for me, even despite knowing a bit of Ember already. I was constantly stopped by opaque exceptions from the "runloop" which didn't even point to a line of my code. Tracking those down is a Royal Pain In The Ass.

At one point I had enough and just wanted to drop back to "old-style" Ember (who needs a Router anyway!) but quickly gave up on that, too, when it didn't work right away and I realized I'd be completely on my own in that style anyway.

So, from my short (but second) endeavor with Ember I have to conclude that you seem to have turned the learning curve into a perfect square-wave. Every time I made a mistake (even as much as a typo) the useless error messages threw me back a mile. It took only a few of these cycles before I gave up in frustration.

I think you're on a dangerous track here. When I compare my first contact with Ember (about a year ago) with my recent experience then it feels like you're about to re-invent Sproutcore. If my memory serves me right Sproutcore was pretty awesome and powerful, but so opaque and unapproachable that nobody ended up using it.

I really hope this doesn't happen to Ember. I hope you're going to modularize it so newbies stand a chance to start small instead of being bombarded with meaningless exceptions from all directions at once. I hope you'll add narrative guides with little "run" buttons to augment the Reference Documentation that you accidentally filed under "Guides".

I hope you'll try to be more jQuery and less Dojo. More Sinatra, less Rails. More library, less framework.

In short, I hope my next attempt at Ember will be more like the first and less like my last weekend.

[1] http://twbrandt.github.io/2013/02/11/Ember-Quick_Start_Guide...

[redeemedfadi]

I had almost the exact same experience. I originally used Ember 0.9.5 for an app and it worked very well. When I moved to 1.0.0-pre I felt that I had to completely relearn everything.

+1 on trying to track down errors. They never point to a line of user code! It's extremely frustrating when something breaks and you have no idea why.

[combataircraft]

We all are gonna be arrested by the Ember officers soon for this attacks.

[combataircraft]

Is my telling opinions looks like attacking for you? What is offending you here ? Being not positive?

I don't do that. It's the second comment that I posted, and I criticize many open source projects. Not only yours. This is what people do in open source world.

No need to take this personal and try to reach me because of a comment that I made on HN.

HN is the comfort area of my opinions. I can call any project as north korea or england or norway.