[Confusion]

You're going completely overboard in your response to a reply that, IMHO, is exceedingly vague and could be interpreted in several very different ways. I also think it's weird that it was upvoted 5 times (but people tend to upvote things they think support their opinion), but at the same time, I consider your response completely unwarranted and would downvote it, would I have the power to do so.

[seertaak]

Stop being so coy Confusion -- if there are 'several' 'very different' interpretations to mine, then I'd like to hear them. As far as I can tell, the meaning of his statement was quite clear: musicians are a bunch of whingers who have nothing 'vital' to offer, so fuck them.

And that poster is hardly alone in his tone -- look at any thread that even tangentially touches on the music scene. Yes, my language was (is) strong, but get this: I live in London, and I'm quite active in the music scene here (you can check out my band at http://www.myspace.com/thesignalsuk, and my solo music at http://www.myspace.com/martinpercossi), and I know quite a few musicians that would have found funding by a label ten or so years ago (check out http://www.myspace.com/oliexplode, for instance), but sadly, there's not enough money to fund people who don't pander to commercial tastes.

These are not guys earning fat paychecks from your IBMs or Googles etc. They're pulling pints, struggling on 7 quid or so an hour. And I find it truly insulting the lack of compassion with which well-earning hackers here regard musicians. The constant railing about us having some sense of entitlement (when all we're asking for is our property rights to be respected, for god's sake), about us having making easy money (again -- it's Larry and Sergei who have a private 747; name me a record exec or artist that has one!) -- it really angers me to read this. So sorry if I'm the only one with necessary perspective to call a spade a spade. I feel strongly about this, and I stand by my comment, as I'm sure any number of my musician friends would. If that upsets your delicate sensibilities, well then so be it: we're talking about peoples' livelihoods here, people who really are passionate about music and want nothing more than to share it with the public in a way that's fair and mutually beneficial.

[greyboy]

David Geffen, P. Diddy, Rolling Stones (?) - but I don't think any of these own a 747. However, just because musicians don't own one doesn't mean the can't own one. I would argue in the corporate world they are likely treated as corporate, rather than private, expenses. In the acting industry, many own private jets (or, in Travolta's case, five).

The easy path is through the mainstream - if you're willing to give in to The Man (tm).

[seertaak]

This is incredible.

Another pair of downmods -- again, no one addresses the points I make.

I ask again, what are these other, benign, interpretations?

Hacker News is becoming a ghetto.

[unalone]

It's a metaphorical ghetto because metaphorical lepers like you are metaphorically whining about how the metaphorical government sucks rather than leaping up, not complaining, and getting a metaphorical job. There is nothing more annoying than somebody whining about being downvoted, so while I upvoted your original comment, I downvoted the seertaak drama. I get downvoted for things I say pretty much constantly, but I don't call that a ghetto. I call that difference of opinion.

To respond to your "argument" as succinctly as possible: musicians are terrific, but musicians who demand that a hosting service like Youtube pay them when Youtube never offered that up as an arrangement are musicians who are greedy and trying to take money from an honest service. Some people get a million views on Youtube and become famous and get a contract. Maybe if your band did the same, you'd stop thinking it's totally unfair. In the meantime, companies do offer you the ability to get royalties off your videos. Just not Youtube, which happens to be the most popular one. You have a choice about using Youtube or not.

Meanwhile, my favorite new musician, Joanna Newsom, a harpist who has a bizarre voice, managed to release a Steve Albini-backed album in 2006, which I can't imagine happening were it not for the insane amount of freedom that the Internet provides. So this "inability" of musicians to get funded? Doesn't make sense to me, when you can self-release a CD for no cost at all. Get Logic Studio, learn a teensy bit about music recording, release yourself an album. If you're decent, people will hear it despite the shoddy recording, and you'll have leverage to get a deal.

So yes. You are entitled. You do not have a right to make any more money than people think you have a right to make. If you were superawesome, you would rise up. A friend's band recently signed on to a subset of Sony and they've gotten 4 million plays on MySpace. They're on the rise. I bought their album on iTunes and it was almost worth the money I paid, which is saying a lot since I'm broke.

Meanwhile, you defend yourself not with logic but with swears and Britishisms, which makes me think you're just a jerk rather than a sincere guy.

[seertaak]

> it's a metaphorical ghetto because metaphorical lepers like you are metaphorically whining about how the metaphorical government sucks rather than leaping up, not complaining, and getting a metaphorical job.

You use this word, "metaphorical", a lot. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Also, what on earth makes you think I, or my musician friends (who I expressly told you work low-paid jobs as bartenders) don't have jobs? I'm a developer at a equity stat arb hedge fund, and I'm doing just fine, thank you very much. However, unlike you, I have the ability to empathise with my musician buddies who are less fortunate and didn't have the benefit of obtaining a Masters in Maths and Computing from Imperial College.

> I get downvoted for things I say pretty much constantly, but I don't call that a ghetto.

It certainly is ghetto behaviour to downmod somoeone while being too lazy to offer anything in way of riposte. Although, in f airness, you didn't do that, so kudos to you.

> musicians who demand that a hosting service like Youtube pay them when Youtube never offered that up as an arrangement are musicians who are greedy and trying to take money from an honest service.

Who cares if YouTube never offered that arrangement? If you recall, the idea was that YouTube was supposed to be the forum fo r which Joe internet user could post funny videos about himself, not for the wholesale ripoff of established and up-and-comin g artists. Do you really think that YouTube would have achieved the traffic it enjoys without the flagrant hosting of copyrig hted material? And, just to repeat, seeing as you don't seem so bright: the material is COPYRIGHTED. Far from being greedy, i t is absolutely right and proper for musicians to demand remuneration for the the use of that material.

> which I can't imagine happening were it not for the insane amount of freedom that the Internet provides.

Yes, the internet does empower artists in some sense. But food and rent don't grow of trees. People need to pay for music in order for musicians to continue making it.

> You have a choice about using Youtube or not.

The implicit threat from YouTube is "accept our staggeringly low royalties, or deal with the piracy issue on your own." If yo u'd bother to read Waterman's statements for example, you'd know that on the basis of around a million views of his Rick Aste ly songs, he got 11 quid. Is that fair?

> So this "inability" of musicians to get funded? Doesn't make sense to me, when you can self-release a CD for no cost at all . Get Logic Studio, learn a teensy bit about music recording, release yourself an album. If you're decent, people will hear i t despite the shoddy recording, and you'll have leverage to get a deal.

It doesn't need to make sense to you. You are obvioulsy a layman who has no real expertise or interest in the music business. If you did, you would know that getting Logic Studio -- which, incidentally, costs 200 pounds, hardly a small amount for someone working behind a bar (not to mention a pair of AKG 414s -- 500 pounds each, in order to record drums, a few SM57s at 60 pounds a pop, a decent mike preamp, ... shall I continue?) (all the tracks on my myspace were recorded like this, all programmed by me, all done on cubase, so pardon me if I laugh when you say "learn a teensy bit about music recording") -- is far from being enough to record an album. Remember that generally speaking half of a labels budget for an album goes to marketing and promotion, not to the actual recording of an album. Plugging a record on the radio, putting up advertisements, etc. all cost money. Why would a label finance this for anything more than sure-fire hits in the face of widespread piracy? And then people here complain about a lack of "vitality". It's so hypocritical!

> You do not have a right to make any more money than people think you have a right to make.

No, you see, actually, it's the other way around. YOU have the right to listen to my music, IF you pay the price that I deem fit. Otherwise, you shouldn't listen to it, because then you're breaking the law, and trampling roughshod over my rights. Capiche? If you walk into a shop and want to buy a skateboard, then it's the shopkeepers prerogative to set the price, is it not? Why should it be any different for music? The seller sets the price, and the buyer can exercise his vote of disapproval by not buying -- and using -- the product. Not by engaging in some self-serving so-called "civil disobedience" and just stealing the product. That one even needs to state this point is astonishing.

> If you were superawesome, you would rise up.

Of course the "superawesome" will rise up. And, of course, I believe The Signals belong in that category ;) However, and this is the point, when an industry sees its revenues fall by 50% in less than ten years, you can be sure that many interesting but perhaps more niche acts will be left by the by. And that's sad.

> A friend's band recently signed on to a subset of Sony and they've gotten 4 million plays on MySpace. They're on the rise. I bought their album on iTunes and it was almost worth the money I paid, which is saying a lot since I'm broke.

Good for them, I wish them much success!

> Meanwhile, you defend yourself not with logic but with swears and Britishisms, which makes me think you're just a jerk rather than a sincere guy.

Britishisms? I chuckled when I read that.

As for not using logic, well, I think my posting record is clear for anyone with a modicum of intellectual honesty. I addressed the original posters remarks. I justified my use of strong language. Where is the lack of logic?

[unalone]

You use this word, "metaphorical", a lot. I don't think it means what you think it means.

As a near-English major who's gotten into prestigious writing programs on the quality of his writing ability, I think "Hacker News is a ghetto" is indeed metaphorical, unless people here by downvoting you are in fact popping caps in your ass. I extended your metaphor in what is known as a conceit, or extended metaphor. Think of it like the "love sonnet" from Romeo and Juliet, only instead of wooing you, I told you that you were being silly for calling Hacker News a ghetto. (However, anybody who quotes Princess Bride can't be all bad, and you are making good points. I just don't like people complaining about downvotes.)

Also, what on earth makes you think I, or my musician friends (who I expressly told you work low-paid jobs as bartenders) don't have jobs? I'm a developer at a equity stat arb hedge fund, and I'm doing just fine, thank you very much. However, unlike you, I have the ability to empathise with my musician buddies who are less fortunate and didn't have the benefit of obtaining a Masters in Maths and Computing from Imperial College.

Congrats! You have money. Finance yourself, go indie. It worked for a ton of really talented bands who hit it big after recording in their garage. "Garage bands", that's a familiar concept.

Who cares if YouTube never offered that arrangement? If you recall, the idea was that YouTube was supposed to be the forum fo r which Joe internet user could post funny videos about himself, not for the wholesale ripoff of established and up-and-comin g artists. Do you really think that YouTube would have achieved the traffic it enjoys without the flagrant hosting of copyrig hted material? And, just to repeat, seeing as you don't seem so bright: the material is COPYRIGHTED. Far from being greedy, i t is absolutely right and proper for musicians to demand remuneration for the the use of that material.

If it's copyrighted, you can demand it be pulled.

Yes, the internet does empower artists in some sense. But food and rent don't grow of trees. People need to pay for music in order for musicians to continue making it.

That's definitely a problem, but the solution isn't demanding arbitrary fees. You can't fight the system: you can only adapt to it and figure out what the new optimal solution is. Part of me thinks that we should go back to musical patrons: rich people with taste funding poorer artists and giving them room. Groups like the Normative Music Company do that, in a way, and I like the results a lot.

The implicit threat from YouTube is "accept our staggeringly low royalties, or deal with the piracy issue on your own." If yo u'd bother to read Waterman's statements for example, you'd know that on the basis of around a million views of his Rick Aste ly songs, he got 11 quid. Is that fair?

Why didn't he ask Youtube to pull them, then? I don't think this is an "implicit threat", even if it is a problem for artist. They aren't threatening. They've stated their terms pretty unequivocally.

You are obvioulsy a layman who has no real expertise or interest in the music business. If you did, you would know that getting Logic Studio -- which, incidentally, costs 200 pounds, hardly a small amount for someone working behind a bar (not to mention a pair of AKG 414s -- 500 pounds each, in order to record drums, a few SM57s at 60 pounds a pop, a decent mike preamp, ... shall I continue?) (all the tracks on my myspace were recorded like this, all programmed by me, all done on cubase, so pardon me if I laugh when you say "learn a teensy bit about music recording") -- is far from being enough to record an album.

Look, we're in the new millenium. Things have changed. If you really, really think it's worth it, pirate Logic Studios and pay for it once you've made enough money. I'd argue that's a noble thing to do. Or hey, stick to Garage Band.

I'll state this pretty straightforwardly, because your attitude is a pretty pampered one. If you want to record an album, all you need is a computer with a microphone and amateur editing software. You sing into it, you play your guitar into it, you get the band all playing. No, it won't sound "pristine", but it doesn't need to be if all you're making is a demo. Record it rough, release it, spread things around. If you're any good you'll get people interested.

Remember that generally speaking half of a labels budget for an album goes to marketing and promotion, not to the actual recording of an album. Plugging a record on the radio, putting up advertisements, etc. all cost money. Why would a label finance this for anything more than sure-fire hits in the face of widespread piracy? And then people here complain about a lack of "vitality". It's so hypocritical!

Yeah, well fuck that system of thinking. You don't need it. Look at the Fleet Foxes, who started with nothing, recorded a terrific EP, distributed it online, and then became a huge hit. I found them on Something Awful. No advertising budget. Just word of mouth. That's also how I discovered Joanna Newsom, and nearly every musician I listen to that isn't classical. (And classical music I usually follow recommendations as well. Somebody here just recommended Einaudi last week.)

No, you see, actually, it's the other way around. YOU have the right to listen to my music, IF you pay the price that I deem fit. Otherwise, you shouldn't listen to it, because then you're breaking the law, and trampling roughshod over my rights. Capiche? If you walk into a shop and want to buy a skateboard, then it's the shopkeepers prerogative to set the price, is it not? Why should it be any different for music? The seller sets the price, and the buyer can exercise his vote of disapproval by not buying -- and using -- the product. Not by engaging in some self-serving so-called "civil disobedience" and just stealing the product. That one even needs to state this point is astonishing.

I listened to your music. I followed both your links. It's mediocre at best. I wouldn't pay for that. If I pirated it I'd probably delete it from iTunes to free up space. But at least I listened to it. If you were charging me money, I wouldn't have paid, because my expectations were low. At least with free distribution, I had a chance to hear it. Meanwhile, with this Joanna Newsom I keep talking about, I pirated her debut album, fell hardcore in love, and then bought copies of it for all my friends. She deserved my money, so I gave it.

Of course the "superawesome" will rise up. And, of course, I believe The Signals belong in that category ;) However, and this is the point, when an industry sees its revenues fall by 50% in less than ten years, you can be sure that many interesting but perhaps more niche acts will be left by the by. And that's sad.

I disagree. That's a sign of an overinflated industry losing some air. Too much money goes into music right now. Having the industry lean up and smarten up will encourage more musical diversity.

As for not using logic, well, I think my posting record is clear for anyone with a modicum of intellectual honesty. I addressed the original posters remarks. I justified my use of strong language. Where is the lack of logic?

Don't get me wrong, your original post is great! So's this one: it deserves upvotes. But once you got downvoted, you could have either waited for upvotes to happen again, or you could have attempted to clarify your statement in a follow-up post, in the hopes that it would right some wrongs. I've done that a few times, and it helps. But posting complaining about people downvoting you only alienates the people who're on your side. That's what I was complaining about: not at all about posts like this, which are absolutely contributing to the conversation.

[seertaak]

> I listened to your music. I followed both your links. It's mediocre at best.

You're of course entitled to your opinion ;) But Mick Jones of Clash fame disagrees with you. My manager is in negotiations with him, along with the guy who produced a few Pink Floyd records, to produce our EP -- recording sessions are slated for mid-June. And it's most certainly going to be a notch above a Logic gig! I'm really excited about that, actually. The Signals will soon be broadcasting on all frequencies!

Plus, I'm booking the studio for three weeks, 24 hours a day, which means I'll be able to get my talented friend Ollie Ipkins in the studio -- something which would be totally prohibitive for him. His music is lovely; I've provided a link above. Even if you don't like my music, listen to his, he's the UK's answer to Ray LaMontagne!

So unlike the chattering classes here on hacker news, I'm actually putting my money where my mouth is. I invite Paul Graham to do the same and drop USD 50K on the business model that saves the music industry; from his comments elsewhere, he seems to think it's a very easy task indeed that is only hampered by the record labels being staffed by utter morons. (The fact that Guy Hand's hire of a tech honcho from Google, had zilch impact on sales, either eludes or fails to interest him).

[seertaak]

> If you really, really think it's worth it, pirate Logic Studios and pay for it once you've made enough money.

Great -- now you're suggesting that I rip off programmers!

It goes without saying that I have too much respect for what I do, both in the programming and music domains, to break the law. It's wrong, and as you mention I can afford to pay, so I will. It's a question of principle for me; how can I expect people to do the right thing and pay for Spotify or iTunes if I don't follow my own dicta?

[seertaak]

> That's a sign of an overinflated industry losing some air.

I agree that the CD days are over and that they were indeed an aberration. It's true that the industry will become more lean. Whether it will be good or bad for music is in the last instance an empirical, and at that rate, highly subjective question.

[scott_s]

The end of your initial comment is not civil. Downvoting such comments is the entire point of the moderation system here.

[seertaak]

So slandering the community of songwriters is civil, but taking someone to task for it isn't.

Somehow, I very much suspect that had my vitriol been directed at "fat cat music execs", my comment would have been upmodded and nobody would have batted an eyelid at at the strong language.

And the strong language is there for a reason. It's intended to wake people up from the slumbering, lazy groupthink that is so in evidence whenever the music industry is the subject.

[scott_s]

If you object to the grandparent comment, then object to it civilly. He criticized (his comment is too weak for "slander") the community you are a part of, and you criticized him. You didn't "take him to task." You insulted him.

[seertaak]

> You didn't "take him to task."

Yes, I did. Else how do you interpret my asking him how he thinks musicians should be remunerated? And my response to his suggestion that musicians are just in it for the money?