The goal is extremely pervasive concurrency in aspects that no modern engine has yet begun to approach (and likely could not approach without enormous effort and/or a full-on rewrite).
You can drop the "likely". Retrofitting pervasive concurrency onto a sizable existing codebase is to a first approximation impossible. It makes merely trying to retrofit pervasive unit testing (hard, but "merely" a long mechanical slog) or correctness with string encoding a cake walk. "Impossible" here can be taken to read as "would require as much effort to do the retrofit as the rewrite would take".
> Copy-on-write DOM. In Servo, the DOM is a versioned data structure that is shared between the content (JavaScript) task and the layout task, allowing layout to run even while scripts are reading and writing DOM nodes.
I think you're being downvoted because if anyone knows about the pain of using C++ to develop a browser engine, it's Mozilla. They have some pretty strong empirical evidence to back up their statement.
No, you don't bash a language for failures of the people using it. It is hyperbole unsupported by any evidence and it is precisely this mentality that keeps our profession on the Greatest New Thing(TM) every x years treadmill for better or worse.
Language bashing/trolling serves no purpose.
I am rather most likely being downvoted because HN in the past few months has taken an extreme downturn towards a slashdot/herd mentality, but that is just another pendulum swinging.
> I am rather most likely being downvoted because HN in the past few months has taken an extreme downturn towards a slashdot/herd mentality
You're being downvoted because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. It's entirely appropriate to criticize a language for being too hard to use correctly - your argument would apply equally well to saying that C++ should never have been created because it was simply the fault of people using earlier languages not using them sufficiently well.
This approaches dark comedy because you're also criticizing a company which maintains one of the largest and most important codebases in existence and has a huge list of bugs and security issues demonstrating that even in the hands of very experienced developers it's too easy to use C++ incorrectly.
Oh, so you think the statement that was quoted was that c++ was too hard to use? Because when you read what was actually quoted it says c++ is poorly suited to solve issues related to data races and parallelism which is a pretty false statement.
Are you able to see how that is different now with a little help? Or is it so insufficient to make up straw arguments and put words into my mouth that now you want to do the same for Mozilla foundation?
C++ is the only realistic option for some things, but it's not without serious problems. Intelligent criticism of a formal system, such as a programming language, is what allows us to make better ones in the future.
If you honestly think there's no point in trying to make better programming languages, you're welcome to continue programming in FORTRAN IV. But don't expect other people to take your opinion seriously about what "serves no purpose".
Also while I hate to be the harbinger of bad news, parallel programming in any language is Really Hard(tm) for most people. Personally, I think there's a fundamental disconnect in how human cognition perceives the world on the one hand and massive parallelism on the other at which very few people I have met really excel relative to the larger population.
Are you claiming that all languages are equally good for all purposes? Or are you claiming that C++ is in fact particularly well suited for parallel development and inherent avoidance of data races?
Coming from a C++ developer, I don't think you're well aware of its limitations. Do yourself a favor and learn a little bit of Rust. It'll open up your mind a little, and just might make you a better C++ programmer.
The C++ memory model (which btw is what underlies any threading facility) was always sufficient for handling the complexity but it never offered any opinions or constraints on implementations until C++11; the standards committee wisely preferred to defer instead to the writers of libraries to provide appropriate designs and services tailored to the specific needs of user communities and particular operating system facilities.
I'm pretty sure based on your writing that you have little to offer me that I don't already understand about the language, but thanks for your hollow advice though. Here, I'll make an empty prediction in return: in 3 years you will be complaining about how difficult it is to do distributed parallelism in Rust and what absolute garbage it is compared to <insert name here>.
The point was simple but fanbois want straw men and windmills at which to tilt: if you have something you think is better, extol its virtues and provide comparative analysis instead of bashing/trolling what currently exists completely out of any useful context.
I really have little interest in discussing anything technical on HN anymore. Here's a token wikipedia link, that's what passes for knowledge I guess [0].
Also I would keep your "advice" to yourself. I certainly hope you wouldn't speak to people like that in person, and you definitely wouldn't be allowed to speak in such a fashion to me in particular. I am pretty familiar with Rust's evolving semantics and syntax, thanks.
Why is it so massive? Why does it need to specify in grave detail the difference between <span>, <label>, <code>, etc.? How about a spec like this:
- There are two types of elements: block and inline. You can declare a name of an element with a particular type using perhaps XML namespaces, or just a JSON object.
- Inline elements can be floated left/right along other inline elements.
- Block elements may be positioned absolutely inside their parent elements or relatively to their current position. You cannot float them.
- Width/height may be specified as a pixel width, percentage width of parent, percentage of available space, or percentage of screen size. Additionally, you may specify the box model: whether to include borders, margins, padding, etc.
- CSS rules about typography, margins, borders, padding, etc. shall apply. This way, you can include your own basic rules and build on top of them.
I had the misfortune to do a bit of hacking with GTK+ and at first thought "what an archaic way to lay out elements?!" Then it came to me that HTML + CSS is not advanced, it is cluttered. There are many ways to position an element on the page, and they will conflict. Additionally, things like opacity affecting z-index, having a parent element have a size to give the child element a percentage size, etc. lead to a ton of hacks. It's time we have a better, cleaner tool than the browser if we are going to build serious apps on this platform.
Yet cannot do simple things like tell a block element to take up all available height.
The spec focuses on various types of data that could be represented. For example we have a <code> tag. This is done in an attempt to be semantic. However, it fails at being comprehensive, and ends up falling back on things like <code class="python"> instead of <python>. The distinction between <code>, <var>, <span>, <label>, and other inline elements is completely arbitrary and which elements get to be first class citizens is also arbitrary. Giving up and saying that there are only <inline> and <block> elements would simplify things a whole lot. If you can then "subclass" a <block> to create a <p> element or subclass an <inline> element to make a <lable>, go for it!
You have basically described XSL FO. In retrospect that's obviously what we should have used for web page layout instead of HTML, but now it's too late.
http://www.w3.org/TR/xsl/
> Unlike the case of HTML, element names in XML have no intrinsic presentation semantics. Absent a stylesheet, a processor could not possibly know how to render the content of an XML document other than as an undifferentiated string of characters. XSL provides a comprehensive model and a vocabulary for writing such stylesheets using XML syntax.
So the big issue with XSL is that it's verbose as hell. I remember using XSL Transforms to do some really simple things, and getting it right was horrible. Debugging it was worse. Given a piece of code that uses HTML + CSS vs XSL, I'd pick HTML + CSS any day simply because it's more readable.
However, yes the core of it seems much better thought out than CSS.
> but now it's too late.
Is it? Is it possible to have some XSL FO to HTML5 + CSS compiler?
Not "a cleaner tool than the browser" a cleaner layout spec. Plus you will have to build a CSS compatibility layer on top. Hard but worthwhile. Sort of thing Adobe might work on.
> Not "a cleaner tool than the browser" a cleaner layout spec.
Yes, agreed. Though the next thing that we might want to tackle is the whole concept of a web page. Seems like storing application state in a URL is a terrible thing, yet it is so convenient for some use cases. This might mess with the idea of a "browser" more since you wouldn't be "browsing" applications, you'd be running them.
> Plus you will have to build a CSS compatibility layer on top. Hard but worthwhile.
Yes, definitely. I can't imagine anything like this taking off without a compatibility layer. However, I think, the compatibility layer could be just HTML, this new CSS replacement, some JavaScript, and a server-side compiler.
Actually I wasn't entirely, they have a lot of experience on print rendering (PostScript, InDesign), and seem to have HTML interest now but are not really attached to CSS per se. Suspect however they are not...
Not only do you have to implement the massive HTML spec, but you must implement incredibly forgiving error handling. Just about any crappy, illegal HTML must be processed without throwing an exception--and the browser has to render something from it.
Creating a new language that handles concurrency and pointer bugs in a systematic way that is also fast is amazing. Writing a new browser engine in said language is very ambitious and important.
https://github.com/mozilla/servo/wiki/Design
The goal is extremely pervasive concurrency in aspects that no modern engine has yet begun to approach (and likely could not approach without enormous effort and/or a full-on rewrite).