[famousactress]

I hate that feeling.. the knowledge that engaging in the discussion is going to be exhausting and the chance of making traction is slim, and the feeling that inaction is the only reasonable alternative. Allow me to suggest another alternative to actual discussion in situations like this:

Tell the person to fuck off.

I'm serious. It registers disagreement, and to any rational person the lack of interest in attempting serious discussion. Ideal? No. Preferable to inaction? Absolutely. Plus where do you even start with a comment like that? I'd prefer to make it clear that I'm shocked than do someone who would say that the favor of jumping into a thoughtful discussion about how the merits of their opinion.

[rescripting]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but for a non confrontational person this course of action is still a battle. When you see this all the time and fight it even just by calling it out, it still wears you out.

Like it or not the hackerverse is full of people who deemphasize social experiences in favour of other things. When someone makes a comment this inappropriate in public you're not just battling their sexism, you're going up against years of personality developed in an insular environment. I've known quite a few devs whose only social interaction in a year is GDC, barring a few friends of theirs who are like minded. They are awkward and inexperienced, and 360 days a year this is reinforced and tit jokes get laughs all round. Going up against that, I can really empathize with the authors central point. I'm tired.

[famousactress]

I think this is so right on, and one of the best sum-ups of the problem our industry has dealing with this sort of thing. I don't have these issues with confrontation, but I'm super familiar with the fact that so many people I've worked with do. That's hard.

[niggler]

"deemphasize social experiences in favour of other things"

The situation shows an active effort in eschewing societal norms. You have to work hard to shut down the mental filter that normally prevents you from making such an off-kilter remark

[rescripting]

The set of rules you internalize to be "normal behaviour" is influenced by your environment. A boy growing up in an isolated household in the woods will have a different model of normalcy, and so when he goes in to town he'll seem "off" to everyone else.

My favourite pop culture example of this is Mose Shrute (Dwight's brother) from The Office (US). He doesn't try to be weird, he just is, because he's grown up in family with weird norms. Similarly the offensive guy in this story probably isn't deliberately pushing aside his common sense, he is just being who he is all the time: someone who is poorly socialized.

It's easy to try to bush incidents like this aside by saying "he knew it was wrong and did it anyway, because he is a jerk" but that deflects from the underlying issue. Socializing makes a lot of devs uncomfortable, so they dont do it. They develop their norms in isolation, and then "go in to town" to conferences like GDC and then set off firestorms. Reacting to these situations in person, you start out trying to convince someone that their comment is rude and wrong. However you end up trying to convince them that their whole model of society is wrong. That is what makes me truly tired.

[reeses]

In what relative normality is it acceptable to tell a group that one of their members received something due to her "award-winning tits?"

I'm all for multi-lateral motives, but some things are wrong for anyone "in town," whether they rode in on a buckboard or lived there their entire lives.

[rescripting]

Spend an evening playing Call of Duty on XBox, then extrapolate that experience to a lifetime.

[ratherbefuddled]

If swear words aren't appropriate in this situation exactly what were they invented for?

Tell the guy to fuck off, and if he doesn't immediately apologise then call a waiter over and ask them to find him a table on his own somewhere because he's no longer welcome at this one.

Surely decent human beings don't meekly sit back and let bullying happen like that?

[richforrester]

For a bit of nuance, instead of "fuck off", you could try something like "I disagree, but I'm pretty tired of that conversation", and change the topic.

Statement made, stupid comment brushed off, nobody got hurt.

The whole "down to their level and beat you with experience" thing comes to mind.

[famousactress]

So.. You're probably right. Here's my (quite possibly unreasonable) defense of the language I suggested...

It grinds conversations to a halt. "I disagree, but.." doesn't register shock. That's not the kind of language people use when they witness horror, or abuse. It's not emotional. If anything, if I was at the table and that was your reaction I'd probably take it to mean that your primary takeaway is to be annoyed at pesky sexism and how these unfortunate jock-types ruin it for the rest of us.

That's not how you'd respond to abuse. This is abuse.

Fuck you registers shock, and anger. It's not a naughty word, it's a tool. I think there's an appropriate time to use language like this, and I think this is it. I definitely don't see it as "coming down to their level", with all due respect I find that kind of absurd.

[rayiner]

I agree with you 100% fuck off conveys exactly the response a comment like that warrants. It singles out the speaker and separates him from the conversation, just like his comment did to the woman. If he wants back in, he has to do so awkwardly and sheepishly, which is I'm sure exactly how the woman in the story felt

[famousactress]

I'm conflicted about my feelings about this, but that's exactly my intent when I speak like this to someone. It's the desire to make them feel small and communicate how little I have respect for them in that moment. I'm honestly not sure if that's healthy. If I was charged with defending the opposing view I'd argue that it's fighting bullying with bullying, or that maybe the ability and desire to make insensitive comments like that in the first place come from feeling small and I'm only fueling the fire. I'm really not sure. I just know that it's worked for me in the past, at least in the small... in situations where I've wanted to diffuse a situation and shut someone up who's expression was abusive. I'm not convinced there's not a better way, though. I just really hope the takeaway to this thread isn't that I think it's obviously perfectly righteous and productive to react like this, just that I think it's (at least occasionally in my experience) effective, and vastly preferable to doing nothing.

[richforrester]

"Fuck you registers shock, and anger."

Correct, but I assumed "I'm tired of losing friends over this" could refer to either side in the argument. If you don't want to hurt anyone, brush off silly comments and move on.

If you want to make a point, by all means.

ps.: "fuck off" might also trigger more discussion, which he's trying to avoid. It's easier to say "my opinion is different" than "your opinion is stupid".

[famousactress]

I feel the need to emphasize. This was not a silly comment. It was abuse. This wasn't misplaced careless language, overheard. This was a targeted and abusive insult to another person who was sitting across the table.

Brushing off the 'silly' comment and moving on is the easiest way to hurt the target more than the comment already has.

I agree that it's easier to say that "my opinion is different", but it's chicken-shit and offers a level of respect that signals unwarranted sympathy. "Your opinion is stupid" would be a profoundly more appropriate statement had it been be, because it much better describes my feelings.

Without making specific slippery-slope arguments, surely at some point we'd all find it ridiculous to say "Thanks, but my opinion is different" after witnessing something disgusting, right? So I guess the question is where that line is for us individually. "You got this pass because of your tits" is severely past that line for me. It's miles deep into "Fuck off" territory.

[flogic]

Actually, I would argue that "fuck off" is the better response. "I disagree" implies that there's grounds for legitimate discussion when the initial remark is so far out of line there really isn't.

[DannyBee]

Yes. Not to mention: "I disagree" in this particular situation also has the unintended consequence of possibly implying something about whether she has nice breasts, while "fuck off" does not.

(One of the oddball cases where the "more polite" response may in fact, be more harmful)

[jlgreco]

Exactly, "Fuck off" gets the full message across loud and clear. It is also short enough that you can deliver the full message without any risk of interruption; just two syllables that can slip under the radar after you have the subjects attention.

  [looking the person in the eyes]
  "Hey [whoever]"
  [repeat as necessary until you have eye contact, at most one or two more times]
  "Fuck off."

There is no chance for them to interrupt you mid-protest to make excuses, and it sends a clear signal that the subject is not up for discussion.

[lightup88]

While I agree wholeheartedly, remember that some of the problem is the current dichotomy. The sexist ass on one hand and the too non-confrontational to say anything on the other. I'd posit that it's more useful to figure out a realistic way to get that second group to speak out--even if it's not a hearty "fuck off".

[flogic]

I'm a non-confrontational person myself actually. It took me over 35 years to learn being that direct is actually less stressful in certain circumstances. Quite arguably, I'm still learning it. We get it in our heads that we owe the asshole an explanation. That's a trap. The explanation becomes it's own source of stress. Odds are strong, the asshole knows they're being an asshole. No, explanation is required.

[bigiain]

If you can pull it off, something like "Really? I thought you were smarter than that…" works pretty well. You kinda need to be able to dominate the conversation with the comment though (which is often pretty easy if it's just one jerk speaking out of place, but can be much harder if they've got an audience-of-idiots laughing along with them).

One thing to keep on mind - the "offender" has given up any expectation or right of politeness or manners extended towards them - there's no need to craft a response that doesn't hurt their feelings, since they've already gone down that path. (I suspect if I were just the right amount of uninhibitedly drunk, I'd quite enjoy responding to "She only got the tickets 'cause of her tits" with "Yeah, that's what everyone with a tiny dick says…")

[ncallaway]

I think my response would be somewhere in the middle. I probably wouldn't curse the person ("fuck off") but frankly "I disagree, ..." is far too light of a response.

I would ask the offending person to leave. If they refused to leave, I would encourage all of my friends to leave.

Such a statement is so beyond-the-pale inexcusable that simply stating your opposition is insufficient. While I agree you don't need to "go down to their level", I see no reason to allow them any more of my time than is absolutely required (i.e. time spent organizing my friends' departure and paying for the check).

[18hrs]

I agree about the need to clearly register disagreement, but I'd opt for slightly less shock... I'd say, calmly and sternly "that is entirely inappropriate." I'd then call on others in the group to register their disagreement.

[fudged71]

A general statement like that can be argued.

"What you just said disgusts me" seems more fitting. You're communicating how it is personally affecting you. That can't be argued.

[kunai]

Tell the person to fuck off.

Okay, I may get many downvotes here, but this doesn't seem like the solution to the problem. Rudeness and insults are rudeness and insults. Cursing doesn't help the matter.

Inaction is not the solution either, but I'm sure there's a more mature way to handle things. Asking the party to leave politely is better than keeping your mouth shut, and it also seems better than cursing them out.

Of course, if they refuse to behave, then tell them the magic words.

Fuck off.

[mlent]

It probably depends on the person. With a guy who uses phrases like "because tits", "fuck off" might be the only thing that makes it through his thick skull.

[reeses]

Right. There are a number of attempts to generalize the terms of the discussion, but "because tits" guy is a specific wanker. It's OK to say things to this person precisely because of his specific behavior.