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by blocking_io 4831 days ago
Are you really comparing how second language learners mangle a language to the first language of millions of Americans? As I said, English learners would not consistently apply rules. They make different mistakes. AAVE speakers reliably use the same grammar, and can understand each other unambiguously. Please explain why Standard American English is superior to AAVE. Why do you think SAE is any more valid than AAVE?
2 comments
prodigal_erik 4831 days ago
> Why do you think SAE is any more valid than AAVE?

Wasn't AAVE originally created by people consciously trying to imitate SAE as best they could after limited education? Don't all the differences represent mistakes now immortalized?

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blocking_io 4831 days ago
Why is the origin relevant? Middle English incorporated Norman vocabulary into Old English following the invasion and subjugation of England. Does that make French a more valid language than English?
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seanmcdirmid 4831 days ago
> Does that make French a more valid language than English?

The French might think so...

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unhammer 4831 days ago
Wasn't Modern English originally created by speakers of Old English consciously trying to imitate French as best they could after limited education?

(Wasn't Old English originally created by Anglo-Saxons consciously trying to imitate Norse and Latin as best they could after limited education?)

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nollidge 4831 days ago
My uneducated 4-year-old nephew speaks American Standard English. It doesn't take any education whatsoever to imitate language.
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Evbn 4831 days ago
Your description matches every language just as well.

English is a nonsensical mess spoken by fools who couldn't keep their German, Latin, and Greek separate.

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smsm42 4831 days ago
Your righteous indignation does not really contribute much. There are billions of people that speak bad English every day. That alone doesn't make their English good. Just saying "a lot of people do it" is not a validation of anything. Every person with native Russian language, at least until they lived in English-speaking country for many years, reliably skips articles and reliably misuses complex tenses, because there's no such thing in their language background. Yet they understand each other perfectly well, moreover - native speakers understand them perfectly well too (maybe they cringe a bit inside, but what could you do?) Does it mean we have Russian American English Vernacular here?

>>> Please explain why Standard American English is superior to AAVE.

I'm not sure what you mean by "superior" here. There's an English language with its grammar rules, and there are common mistakes or detachments from widespread usage patterns which people make in English. What would be the reason some of these should be institutionalized with four-letter acronyms and research programs and, I have no doubt, juicy grants?

>>>> Why do you think SAE is any more valid than AAVE?

Probably the same reason "the" is more valid than "ze". I'd personally prefer the latter, it's easier for me (actually, I'd prefer to get rid of it completely, face it, the whole concept is just a waste of space and time), but stupid English-speaking world insists on using "the". No idea why, maybe you know?

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blocking_io 4831 days ago
Your comparison of second language speakers to native speakers of AAVE continues to be insulting and wrong.

I'm not sure what you mean by "superior" here. There's an English language with its grammar rules, and there are common mistakes or detachments from widespread usage patterns which people make in English.

This is wrong. There is not 'an English language'. There is Standard American English, Scouse, Glaswegian, Received Pronunciation, Jamaican English, AAVE, and dozens of others, many of which you would find harder to comprehend than AAVE.

What would be the reason some of these should be institutionalized with four-letter acronyms and research programs and, I have no doubt, juicy grants?

As I keep explaining, this article does not advocate AAVE speakers should not be taught SAE, but that by recognising their native language they can be taught SAE better.

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smsm42 4826 days ago
>>>> This is wrong. There is not 'an English language'

Of course there isn't. If you are asked "do you speak English?", you have no idea what they are talking about. If you come into a bookstore and see a shelf named "Books in English", you ask the seller to point out to you which books are in Glaswegian, when one in Jamaican English, which ones are in AAVE, which ones are in Scouse... No way there's something that everybody actually calls "English". Got it.

>>>> As I keep explaining, this article does not advocate AAVE speakers should not be taught SAE

I am at loss why you keep explaining something that nobody doubted anyway. Teaching standard English does not preclude juicy grants for studying AAVE and "recognizing it" and "teaching better". I'd be happy to know how exactly better would it be? The article is pretty scarce on the details except for one method that basically eliminates the word "wrong" from the teacher's vocabulary and instead instructs the student that "we do it this way". I am not sure why this would be any different, but for this alone there's no need to even have a concept of AAVE as it seems...

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derleth 4831 days ago
> this article does not advocate AAVE speakers should not be taught SAE

If he actually understood this, his righteous indignation would be gone and then where would he be?

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nollidge 4831 days ago
> Just saying "a lot of people do it" is not a validation of anything.

Actually, when it comes to linguistics, it's the only thing that validates it. Can you possibly come up with better criteria?

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