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by derefr 4836 days ago
> Men, can you imagine how hard it would be if all the women were constantly, and openly, talking about tampons, cramps, yeast infections, cheating, being cheated on, Trichomoniasis, faking-it, etc? I don't know about you, but It would make me feel out of place.

You're right--you don't know about me. I fully wish this were the case!

The place I want to work is the place where people are people, not separately "men" and "women": and people like fart jokes, dick jokes, cramping jokes, faking-it jokes, what have you. They also like pictures of cats!

...or, at least, when you ask them by themselves, they do. But something strange happens when you ask them in a sufficiently large group: suddenly they'll say there are certain things that are horribly offensive, even though they're not "personally" offended!

Now, someone with some evolutionary-biology experience can probably give you the full low-down as to why, but here's my (limited) understanding: when we're in a group of people large enough, and who don't know one-another particularly well, we start to think we might have the opportunity to mate with someone else in the group without that becoming a "sore point" for the group later on (especially if the group isn't closed to new people entering/leaving.) So, we start to enforce these "global social norms" on one another, even if we don't agree with them ourselves. We do it so we can show we can "do the dance" of mating, that we're clever enough to avoid slipping up in the complex social machinery we've instantiated, and thus we sort ourselves into rankings of social ability. Both the people in higher and lower rankings subliminally know their position, and so the people in lower rankings are subconsciously proscribed to submit to those of higher rankings when a rivalry springs up for the affection of a potential mate. Thus, the people best at the dance have the most choice, and we call that something like "charisma."

We drop the whole dance when we end up in groups of "just friends." If nobody around us is a potential mate, why bother? Around friends, we tell all the fart jokes we like, and nobody gets offended. But take those same friends and sit them at a fancy banquet--where strangers can hear them--and suddenly they'll be shushing one another to prevent those jokes from slipping out!

Now, in my opinion, the whole etiquette game is a game--and you shouldn't be playing games at work. It's easy enough to avoid when everyone at your workplace are friends--and this seems to be the real goal that employers are trying to foster through "team-building": the ability for everyone to see one-another as someone to goof off with and tell silly jokes, not a potential mate (and especially not a potential rival for mates!) But it rarely succeeds, precisely because humans are intelligent and observant social animals, who notice when, despite the trappings of "friendship", nobody really cares about what anyone else did on the weekend, nobody will actually keep in touch with anyone else after they move on to another job, etc.

I don't know how to solve the problem, other than to form companies solely from people who are already friends (like YC tends to do!) and then not grow them at all beyond that :)

2 comments

> Men, can you imagine how hard it would be if all the women were constantly, and openly, talking about tampons, cramps, yeast infections, cheating, being cheated on, Trichomoniasis, faking-it, etc? I don't know about you, but It would make me feel out of place.

Would. Not. Give. A. Fuck. Talk to me about whatever shit is bothering you, make jokes about it. The time I start thinking you are a self-absorbed douchebag is when you act like a self-absorbed douchebag.

> Men, can you imagine how hard it would be if all the women were constantly, and openly, talking about tampons, cramps, yeast infections, cheating, being cheated on, Trichomoniasis, faking-it, etc? I don't know about you, but It would make me feel out of place.

I've been the only male in a female dominated IT department before, and you know what... it does feel a bit awkward being a minority. It's not fun, and you always feel like something of an outsider in a sense, even when the other people are friendly and accept you. But at the end of the day, being offended is a choice... you can choose to take offense, or not take offense. And there's a huge gap between something that's merely offensive and actual "abuse" or "sexual harassment". When I worked with all those women, I just went in, did my thing, treated them like equals and did my work. We weren't ever really "friends" and I never hung out with any of them outside of work or anything, but that never mattered. The money they paid me to work there spent just as well, regardless of any of that shit, why should I worry about getting worked up over gender differences and the occasional joke about premature ejaculation or penis size.

Not in an IT dept, but when I was going to school, I worked in a restaurant where I was the only male most of the time. Well, I was a shift manager, and all the shift managers and store manager were females except me (4-5 others). I got the crap shifts, had my schedule changed on a whim by others, and was often given crap tasks - moving/unloading stuff "because you're the man - I can't lift that!" It was funny for about a week, but never got any better. Regional manager gave me no support - he didn't want to be seen as disciplining any of the female staff for fear of some sexism/discrimination lawsuit. Eventually I left, but not soon enough.
Funny you mention this, as I was told by the hiring manager at a wendy's that I worked at that she was hiring me to "do the man work", which meant unloading and putting away truck, working grill,taking out the trash, etc... Never really thought about that until now...
Things never change, do they. :)

IIRC, the issue started because one of the shift managers was pregnant, and couldn't do some things - fair enough - it doesn't last forever, and I'm fine with helping out now and then, but not being taken advantage of. And really, most of this stuff really wasn't heavy - boxes of up to 25 pounds on occasion, but rarely ever more than that, and there was trollies and carts and stuff to move heavy stuff around (and usually delivery drivers would unload stuff to a fridge or freezer for you anyway. Give them a nice cup of coffee and they'd handle some of the shifting in the freezer too :)