[ok_craig]

The common lament about Google being just a place that optimizes ad clicks is overused, and lazy thinking.

I don't even think it's a conclusion that's the result of actual thought anymore, just reverb.

Google is a big company. It would not even be worth it or effective to have every single engineer dedicated to this ad click business. There's a team for that, and there are lots of other teams, for lots of other interesting things. Many of them do serious intellectual research.

My impression of Google's leadership, employees, and choice of projects often leads me to believe that they sell ads so they can continue making really cool stuff - not that they try to come up with cool stuff so that they can sell ads.

I also disagree with the whole premise that goal-oriented or profit-driven intellectual study is in some way less pure, less worthy, less boundary-pushing, or more short-sighted than purely academic study. How does the initial incentive for a thought affect whether or not the conclusions from that thinking are new knowledge about our universe? It doesn't.

As long as he's not sacrificing what he does to become a paper pusher, which he isn't doing, I don't see how it's different. And I think ultimately the closer his study is to being manifested in real things that we use, the faster his knowledge will be refined towards the path of truth, and the faster humanity will actually learn and benefit.

[wtallis]

Google simply hasn't been around long enough to earn the kind of credibility that Bell Labs and Xerox PARC had.

[paulsutter]

So when is the last time that PARC or Bell Labs produced anything of note? Seriously. 15 or 20 years?

You can only rest on laurels for so long before they dry up and blow away.

Google meanwhile is an incredible company. Are you saying you know better than Hinton where the real progress is being made?

[Associat0r]

Real progress in computing is made by former PARC guys at VPRI http://vpri.org/html/writings.php

For example STEPS a full modern computing environment in 20KLOC from the metal up using DSLs and a reimagining of what an OS and the Web means.

Some more Info here: "STEPS 2011 Progress Report (personal computing in 20kLOC)" http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4436

"Alan Kay: How Simply and Understandably Could The "Personal Computing Experience" Be Programmed?" http://vimeo.com/10260548

"Programming and Scaling" http://www.tele-task.de/archive/lecture/overview/5819/

[Homunculiheaded]

I think most people considered the spin off into Lucent to be the true end of what Bell Labs was. There hasn't effectively been a Bell Labs since 1997.

[Daniel_Newby]

The true end of Bell Labs was when Lucent started financing customer purchases. They were carrying dot com bubble debt on their books as if it were a solid asset. When the music stopped they had spent their actual assets to the brink of destruction.

[wtallis]

I wasn't suggesting that Hinton or anyone else should go to Bell Labs or PARC these days. I was just pointing out that back in the day, nobody would have been disappointed or considered it selling out for a notable figure to leave academia for one of those corporate research centers. For all that Google may aspire to have that kind of reputation for research, they don't have it, yet. So some doubting is allowable. However, I can't think of any other for-profit employer that seems to be as willing and able as Google to build that kind of legacy.

[waterlesscloud]

You're arguing a point he's not making.

[Daniel_Newby]

> So when is the last time that PARC or Bell Labs produced anything of note?

Some—perhaps many—of their alumni now work at Google doing cool things. For example, Ken Thompson and Rob Pike created Go at Google.

[gajomi]

To the extent that they don't have that kind of credibility (I think I agree with your assessment) whatever the eventual result of Hinton joining the team should say something very strong about whether or not they will. If he finds that he isn't getting what he wants out of it, I think we can expect him to leave. If he ends up staying it is evidence that Google can hold the interest of the sort of people you would expect to find at places like Bell Labs.

[minwcnt5]

The dozen or so Bell Labs alumni working at Google is also evidence that Google can hold the interest of the sort of people you would expect to find at places like Bell Labs. :)

[smackmybishop]

Neither had they when they started.

[pekk]

Follow the money. Where does the money come from? Google is not a charity for intellectual projects, it is a business.

[OGinparadise]

The common lament about Google being just a place that optimizes ad clicks is overused, and lazy thinking....many of them do serious intellectual research

Now that's lazy thinking. No one accused Google or Verizon or of not having "many people" that do serious research.

Personally, I see absolutely no problem with what he did, he has a family and his future to worry about. After all these years he deserves to make a lot of money money and not have to worry about money anymore. Those that criticize him for "selling out" will probably sell their start-up to just about anyone for FU money.

What I find not true, especially in the past year or two is this:

"My impression of Google's leadership, employees, and choice of projects often leads me to believe that they sell ads so they can continue making really cool stuff - not that they try to come up with cool stuff so that they can sell ads."

Part of my job requires me to surf without ad-blockers and with Chrome. There's no trick in the book they do not use to make you click on ads or sign for their services. Even Chrome, the "open source" the supposed savior of the web now has ads. It totally changed my perception of them, and it's not like Google was struggling to pay their electricity bill. As a commercial enterprise, Google has the right to do that, however they cannot have their cake and eat it too.

[ok_craig]

> Now that's lazy thinking. No one accused Google or Verizon or of not having "many people" that do serious research.

By assuming that every single person who joins Google is somehow being used to optimize ad clicks, the implication is that they are abandoning whatever serious intellectual research they could have otherwise been doing.

> There's no trick in the book they do not use to make you click on ads or sign for their services.

This doesn't counter my point. The fact that their ad click team is actually doing its job doesn't mean anything about the greater motivation of the company.

[plg]

"he has a family and his future to worry about. After all these years he deserves to make a lot of money money and not have to worry about money anymore."

exactly.

Academic salaries are low compared to salaries in the private sector, when equated for things like years of training, status in one's field, etc. Here are some facts:

- Google clearly has a self-interest in being a leader in machine learning technologies

- Geoff Hinton is a world recognized leader in this very field

- Google appears not JUST to be interested in selling ads ... but as many posts have said, they seem to have the ability to run in-house R & D in a somewhat more open way than most companies in the private sector

Here is some speculation:

- faced with the chance of working at Google on the very same topics one is already working on, but receiving ... 10x? 50x? even 100x? the salary, wouldn't you do it?

- think of it this way: if Geoff Hinton's google pay is a "mere" 5 million per year, then all he has to do is work under these terms for TWO YEARS and he will have made 67 YEARS of $150,000 per year salary (probably a median senior academic salary in canada)

let's stop criticizing and start getting excited about what's coming down the pipe

- and hope that google makes it all publicly available, and not just secret sauce

[svantana]

I agree, but on the other hand I'm impressed that google services are so tolerant of ad blockers. I've never even seen a single ad on youtube for example - although they could easily "trick" the ad blockers, or even worse, block the content when ad blocking is detected. Then again, this might all change if a large enough fraction of users start using adblock...