[throwaway54-762]

It's figurative, not literal. I am very much aware of desoxyn and that adderall is actually composed of four amphetamine salts, none of them literally meth. However, the amphetamine family of drugs have very similar effects — meth is very similar to adderall is very similar to vyvanse.

[MichaelGG]

I don't understand the figurative part. Is that like folks who call oxycodone "legal heroin" or "synthetic heroin"? Is it supposed to sound edgy or provide some sort of shock effect against ignorant people? I don't get it.

[throwaway54-762]

I don't describe it like that to "sound edgy" or provide "shock effect." It's just pointing out that these drugs are very similar chemically and biologically, and that people should examine their own biases that divorce adderall (medicine!) from meth (evil drug!) in their minds — they are not so different substances.

[JohnBooty]

However small the chemical difference, there is an enormous practical difference.

Meth can produce an intense high. Adderall, not so much.

I don't have any experience with meth so I can't compare Adderall and meth directly. However, I'd compare the extremely limited "high" from Adderall with... what a person with no caffeine tolerance feels when drinking a medium latte from Starbucks. And, like caffeine, you quickly grow accustomed to Adderall and no longer feel a high from it.

So while it's true that they're chemically similar, and that we shouldn't be demonizing anybody in my opinion, I don't think Adderall and meth are very similar in a practical sense.

While Adderall is obviously misused by some, it is seldom abused in the catastrophic ways that meth is.

[kragen]

I think you're naïve.

Experienced amphetamine users are not able to distinguish the effects of amphetamine (Adderall) and methamphetamine (Desoxyn) in double-blind "taste tests". The main difference is that the effective dosage is different.

It's easy to abuse amphetamine in the catastrophic ways that methamphetamine is abused: you crunch it up and snort it instead of taking a slower-releasing pill, and you take higher dosages than you'd take to focus on your homework.

[throwaway54-762]

> However small the chemical difference, there is an enormous practical difference. Meth can produce an intense high. Adderall, not so much.

This just isn't true. Adderall is several amphetamines and the drug definitely produces a high. The medical application of the drug is this rush of dopamine and seratonin allows users to focus and ignore distractions.

The high is an amphetamine high, much like meth, actually. You've noticed that tolerance diminishes these effects; so have many meth users.

[simonster]

This just isn't true. Adderall is several amphetamines and the drug definitely produces a high. The medical application of the drug is this rush of dopamine and seratonin allows users to focus and ignore distractions.

There's no rush of serotonin. Amphetamines primarily affect the norepinephrine and dopamine transporters. They can affect serotonin transporters, but only in very high doses. (MDMA, or "pure" Ecstasy, affects primarily serotonin transporters, and has very different effects.)

The ratio of affinity for the dopamine transporter vs. norepinephrine transporter is substantially different between methamphetamine and dextroamphetamine (the principal component of Adderall). While both bind to both, methamphetamine has a stronger relative effect on the dopamine transporter as compared to dextroamphetamine.

The "classic" picture is that the norepinephrine transporter affects dopamine levels in prefrontal cortex and norepinephrine levels throughout the brain, and the dopamine transporter affects dopamine levels in the striatum. Striatal dopamine release is probably important for both the reinforcing effects of the drugs and their effects on motivation. Prefrontal dopamine release is probably important in improving focus. Because dextroamphetamine has a stronger relative effect on the norepinephrine transporter, it causes greater prefrontal dopamine release relative to striatial dopamine release, although both drugs still cause both.

So, the drugs aren't quite the same, and there's a reason Adderall and not methamphetamine is prescribed for ADHD, but you're right that a high enough dose will produce a high in either case. However, the action of the drug that produces the high isn't necessarily the (only) action that has therapeutic actions on ADHD. Atomoxetine (Strattera®), which only affects norepinephrine transporters and is comparatively non-addictive, is also effective against ADHD.

(While I am a neuroscientist, I'm not entirely up to date on the literature here, so take this all with a grain of salt.)

[throwaway54-762]

Thanks for going into more depth here. You understand it much more thoroughly than me =).

[JohnBooty]

Your body acclimates itself to just about anything - the weather, sugar, MSG, even frequent shampooing or Chap-Stick usage. That doesn't mean those things are comparable to meth.

Nobody I know feels that Adderall provides much of a high. Anecdotal, sure, but it seems like a heck of a statistical anomaly.

Then again, I don't know anybody that's experimented with unsafe doses of Adderall. I'm sure that at dangerously high doses, the effect isn't unlike meth.

Then again, that's true of just about anything even remotely psychoactive when you talk about large doses. Heck, 500-1000mg of pure caffeine will probably get you meth-like results.

[kragen]

No, large doses of different drugs have very different effects. Massive doses of caffeine will make you anxious, shaky, and give you heart palpitations, but it won't make you have sex all night long or hyperfocus like amphetamine.

The reason large doses of methamphetamine have very similar effects to large doses of amphetamine is not that in large doses, all drugs are similar; it's that methamphetamine is very similar to amphetamine.

[throwaway54-762]

> Your body acclimates itself to just about anything - the weather, sugar, MSG, even frequent shampooing or Chap-Stick usage. That doesn't mean those things are comparable to meth.

Yes, of course, tolerance isn't indicative of meth.

> Nobody I know feels that Adderall provides much of a high. Anecdotal, sure, but it seems like a heck of a statistical anomaly.

I would respectively disagree. Yes, typical therapeutic doses of adderall are smaller than typical recreational doses of meth. But that is comparing small apples with bigger apples ;-).

> Then again, I don't know anybody that's experimented with unsafe doses of Adderall. I'm sure that at dangerously high doses, the effect isn't unlike meth.

Or even just at non-dangerously high doses ("normal" meth doses). In other words, if the doses are similar, the effects are similar. You seem to be arguing that because meth is typically consumed at higher doses, it is different.

I agree that typical meth use is very different from typical medical adderall use.

[rdl]

From a former tweaker I know: smoked meth (or even hotrails) is in an entirely different class, but swallowing methamphetamine powder (capped or in a paper "parachute") isn't noticeably different in peak intensity from the 30mg IR adderall pills, but the meth lasts much longer.

Insufflated meth is higher peak than comparable by weight adderall powder (crushed up pills), but just increasing the adderall quantity makes up for that.