[EliRivers]

"These two theories describe the exact same behavior"

I disagree. One of them is about long-term passion for a goal. One of them is about social inability.

It's quite possible to have both at the same time. It's quite possible to have just one. It's quite possible to have neither. They are not the same thing.

[lutusp]

> I disagree.

You didn't disagree. Your reply distinguishes the behaviors based on whose explanation you're listening to, not the behavior itself.

> One of them is about long-term passion for a goal.

> One of them is about social inability.

Yes -- that's the why, not the what. The behavior is the same, but the explanation is different, and it differs based on who is talking.

Two groups of psychologists have identified the same behavior. One of them celebrates it, says it's how we accomplish great things. The other condemns it, says it's a mental illness. And both of them identify the same people -- Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, Thomas Jefferson, and Bill Gates, among others -- as being terrific examples of grit, or mentally ill, based on the same behavior.

[EliRivers]

I maintain that they are not the same. The principal behaviour of Aspergers is a social inability. The principal behaviour of Grit is passion for a long-term goal.

In your original post, I take issue with this in particular: "These two theories describe the exact same behavior -- intense focus and specialization". I disagree. I believe only ONE of them describes intense focus - grit. The other, Asperger's, describes social inability.

If they are the same thing, how is it possible that some people who are passionate about a long-term goal are socially adept and gregarious, and some people with Aspergers have no passion for any long-term goals?

Grit behaviour - passion for long term goal. Says nothing about social ability. It's very possible to have fantastic passion for a long term goal and be socially adept.

Asperger's behaviour - social inability. Says nothing about passion for long term goals. It's very possible to be Aspergic and have no passion for long term goals.

These are two different behaviours. You say they are the same behaviour - I completely disagree.

[lutusp]

> I maintain that they are not the same.

I didn't say they were the same, I said they were different. Only the behavior is the same. For a given behavior -- intense focus on a few activities or one activity -- the Grit contingent will celebrate it, and the Asperger contingent will issue a mental illness diagnosis.

> Asperger's behaviour - social inability. Says nothing about passion for long term goals.

First, Aspies achieve more than average people because their focus produces long-term results as an effect of their focus. You're confusing causes and effects.

Being a world-class concert pianist or violinist is not a symptom of ASperger's, it's an effect, an outcome, that springs from intense focus, and intense focus is a symptom of Asperger's.

Second, are you really not getting this? Psychology is driven by opinion, not evidence. For a given behavior, you will get two (or more) assessments from different psychological camps. Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, Thomas Jefferson, Bill Gates are (a) famous, creative people, and (b) Aspies, based on the same set of behaviors. All that's different is which mental health expert is speaking.

"Famous People with Aspergers Syndrome":

http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_2086.sh...

"Famous People with Aspergers Syndrome":

http://www.aspergerssyndromeparent.com/famous-people-with-as...

The Grit theory is an obvious acknowledgment that restricted interests sometimes produces amazing results, but the Asperger's people already knew that, while telling Aspies how mentally ill they are. It is all about how one chooses to interpret the same behavior.

> I believe only ONE of them describes intense focus - grit. The other, Asperger's, describes social inability.

You're mistaken:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

Quote: "characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests."

Note "restricted ... interests" in the above definition of Asperger's.

The Grit contingent emphasizes the achievement of long-term goals, the Asperger contingent emphasizes social ineptitude. Both are describing the same behavior in different ways.

It's not as though this is an original idea -- it's why Asperger's is being abandoned as a diagnosis (too many successful people are being stigmatized with a pointless mental illness diagnosis).

"A Powerful Identity, a Vanishing Diagnosis":

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/health/03asperger.html?pag...

[EliRivers]

"Second, are you really not getting this?"

Yes, I really am not getting this. Earlier I thought you were saying that the two were in fact the same thing, but now you seem to be saying that they are different and they happen to have similar symptoms; although, frankly, the difference between an Aspergic obsessed with something and a passionate non-Aspergic obsessed about something are like chalk and cheese; a few minutes spent with each talking about their interest makes the two unmistakable - if it's identical behaviour, how come I can tell the two apart? How come I can think of heaps of people with grit who are not Aspergic and would not be described as such by even the most diagnosis-happy psychiatrist?

I think what you're saying is that they are different, and that it's possible to sometimes mistake one for the other, and some psychiatrists make this mistake. Is that what you're saying?