[jzwinck]

I know it's for a simpler core language, but LuaJIT is quite a shoestring project too, with one main developer. Yet LuaJIT posts impressively fast results, even though Lua makes no distinction between objects and hash tables. In this and other ways, Lua can be compared to Javascript...but it does have a fast, high-quality JIT implementation, despite not a ton of money or even mindshare. I'm curious why you think this is (or if you think the facts are different).

P.S.: "hash_set" in the slides should be "hash_map."

[fijal]

I know, Mike is really good. However, this sort of approach does not scale toward larger teams hence the limits of what sort of language you can potentially implement. Lua is much much simpler than Javascript, which is again simpler than Python (Python is really vast). Also, can you find two Mikes?

[snogglethorpe]

Lua does not seem simpler than javascript in any way that would affect a JIT compiler.

Lua is a fairly simple language for the user, in the sense that it uses a few general mechanisms rather than a plethora of more specialized ones. However this "simplicity" can be misleading because these general mechanisms are very powerful, and can generally be used to implement most things other languages have specialized abstractions for. This sort of powerful and general mechanism is actually fairly hard to write an optimizing compiler for, because there's little stated explicitly about what's going to happen at runtime, and few obvious constraints about what's allowed to happen.

The reason LuaJIT (and most modern JIT compilers, although LuaJIT seems better than average) is so fast is because it uses very very local (in terms of both location and time) runtime context to know when to specialize operations that are conceptually much richer, e.g., "this number is really an integer" (Lua does not have a separate integer type), or "I know what function/operator will be called here (even though it conceptually dispatches through a table or metatable), so I can inline it or use a direct call."

I'm less sure about python (never used it much), but almost all the differences seem be user-facing ones -- large amounts of syntax-sugar for things that Lua offers sufficient mechanism for, but no built-in UI (in the programming-language sense). As it's the power/complexity of the mechanism that matters, not the UI, such user-facing richness doesn't really affect a JIT compilers.

[fijal]

I claim you're wrong. I've been working on a range of JIT compilers, but the PyPy is the biggest one. The problem is not "how hard the semantics are", but "how much of the semantics you need to support", especially that interaction between them is a headache. Lua does not have the equivalent of where statement in JS (albeit most JIT compilers just don't optimize it) for example.

I won't argue about the JS (although DOM interaction comes to mind as a big headache), but in Python syntax is trivial. It's all the semantics and not just how they're, but how much of it. descriptors, metaclassses, new/old style classes, tons of builtin types, tons of builtin modules, all of it the user will expect to seamlessly integrate with the JIT compiler.

[oscargrouch]

Mike Pall + Lars Bak = JIT Dream Team :)