[anthemcg]

I kinda agree, it makes some sense. Its easy in an office environment to forget about remote employees even if they do a lot of work. Out of sight , out of mind is quite real. It seems to matter less if you don't have a strong team dynamic; such as teams that are pieced together from contractors or work that is done mostly alone.

[shill]

>> Out of sight , out of mind is quite real.

Also, resentment issues.

---

Where's Bob? He should be in this meeting.

  He's "working" from home today. (Makes quotation mark signs with fingers) 

Oh, yeah. I forgot that it's Tuesday. Let's get him on the phone.

  Don't bother. I just called him and he's at his kids swim lesson. 

Must be nice.

[ChuckMcM]

I am aware of this sort of stuff that goes on, generally though I think of it as a management problem. But let me explain why I think that.

So perhaps "Bob" in our example really does have a job which allows him to work as effectively[1] at home as he can at work. Bob should also be aware of the schedule. So when the meeting comes up, Bob should be ready for it. And I've known folks working remotely who where chilling on the conference line waiting for the rest of the meeting to show up. But if either Bob isn't there when he should be, or the manager isn't organized enough to give Bob at least 12hrs notice of a meeting he should be attending, then you've got a management problem.

[1] First tip is that a manager needs to have a way of evaluating their teams effectiveness, if they don't then they can't really say if Bob is or is not as effective as others in his position.

[jmccree]

I've worked on a lot of distributed teams. For an actual team (not just subcontractors) every place has had some level of "office hours". Normally a ~4+ hour block every day that you are expected to be "in office" and available for calls/chat. Some places do hardcore 9-5, even for remote workers. When teams have different time zones in play, normally everyone tries to have atleast a 2 hour overlap during a normal work day. It's during the office hours of someone the manager knows they are available for ad-hoc meetings etc.

Perhaps a more important note is that, in my experience, most distributed teams have /way/ less meetings than an in person teams. A lot of things are done informally over IRC/chat. I say informal, but since IRC is usually logged, if someone is not involved in the informal discussion at the time it takes place, they can just read it to catch up on why the decisions were made.

[slurgfest]

The meeting in the fictional example isn't necessarily scheduled, so there is no way for him to be aware of it.

Also, in the example, it may be that the employees griping about Bob are not even going to try to notify him.

I agree with you that this requires an organized manager. Unfortunately, a ton of managers lack this kind of organization.

[JohnBooty]

"But if either Bob isn't there when he should be, or the manager isn't organized enough to give Bob at least 12hrs notice of a meeting he should be attending, then you've got a management problem."

I agree with you, except for that part. For most jobs, it's incredibly valuable to have impromptu "hallway" discussions that can't be scheduled in advance, isn't it?

Your main point still stands - Bob needs to be available during office hours, even if he's at home.

[coldtea]

>For most jobs, it's incredibly valuable to have impromptu "hallway" discussions that can't be scheduled in advance, isn't it?

No, it's not.

If your business is so undisciplined and random that it's "valuable" (and even more "incredibly valuable") to have improptu "hallway" discussions, then you're doing it wrong.

[michaelochurch]

If your business is so undisciplined and random that it's "valuable" (and even more "incredibly valuable") to have improptu "hallway" discussions, then you're doing it wrong.

Disagree strongly. Creativity often comes from people synthesizing ideas that wouldn't ordinarily meet, and especially not in a way that can be planned by management.

In the typical corporate environment where employees are just expected to implement ideas handed down by management, there's no value in these unplanned discussions. However, if you're looking for creativity and organic development, then there's value in those sort of random encounters. That doesn't mean remote can't work. It does give it a different feel. But I strongly disagree that there's zero value to unplanned discussion.

[coldtea]

>Disagree strongly. Creativity often comes from people synthesizing ideas that wouldn't ordinarily meet, and especially not in a way that can be planned by management.

That's totally orthogonal to "hallway" meetings.

To put it another way, if you can't do the above over IM/Skype/email/etc, you're doing it wrong.

[JohnBooty]

"Don't bother. I just called him and he's at his kids swim lesson"

There are issues with telecommuting that are difficult to overcome, but this one is ridiculously simple.

The solution (well, a solution) is to have business hours during which everybody needs to be available. I have an arrangement like that with my employer - between 9 and 5, even if I'm working at home, my manager needs to be able to pick up his phone and have me be instantly available.

At first, he was a little doubtful, but he soon realized that he can actually get a hold of me more quickly this way when compared with walking across the building from his office to mine. (And no, he doesn't abuse this... haha) :)

It gets slightly trickier when people are in different time zones, but nothing that can't be overcome. People need predictable office hours; there can't ever be a "Bob's at his kids' swim practice" moment. Barring emergency, of course.

[rhizome]

"I guess we should have scheduled this meeting more than 5 minutes in advance."

[droithomme]

"I hate that stupid Bob and his kid's swimming lessons! Bob should be made to be like us and spend 9-5 in useless meetings and develop products for 13 minutes a day rather than be like dumb old Bob and spend the day with family and then work from 7pm to 3am in a solid sprint, coding."

[ja27]

Also, productivity issues.

Oh, I'll wait until tomorrow to talk to Bob about X, when he's back in the office.

[tg3]

The problem with Bob in this example is that he's not a good worker, and doesn't keep his commitments, not that he's working remotely.

[codeonfire]

This is too funny, do I work with you? You forgot the part about when 'Bob' brings his kids into the office when anybody complains.

[taligent]

What a ridiculous argument. You are talking about behavioural issues i.e. not being available for scheduled meetings not something inherent to working remotely. Or to put it more simply:

Where's Bob? He should be in this meeting.

   He's outside having a coffee and cigarette with Jane.

[xtracto]

Definitely, as long as persons performance is measured in their outcomes and not in the number of meetings they attend to or the "butt hours" they make, working from home is as productive as working in the office.

I think the sweet spot is when it is a combination of both.

[shill]

I could have noted that Bob manages his time well and completes all of his assigned work. The outcome is still the same. Haters gonna hate.

[cjfont]

Doing good work does not compensate for being allowed to blow off meetings at will, allowing such behavior decreases morale among the group and can lower productivity as a whole.

[recycleme]

One thing that can help with this is to have an open "informal" chatroom for all your employees (or for teams). Now if the person is completely silent, well, that's another issue.