[bjornsing]

As irrefutable proof I give you Fox News: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2qTdFX6thg&t=0m13s. ;)

I live in Malmö and IMHO FN didn't quite live up to it's "fair and balanced" motto here. :)

On a more serious note I'd say the nordic countries are much more homogeneous than the US, ethnically and politically.

[dalke]

Politically? I moved to Göteborg a few years back. The day after I arrived was May Day. The Socialists, Marxists, Marxist-Leninists, Social Democrats, Leftists, and Red Front political parties each had their own march. Then of course the Christian Democrats, the Moderates, Center Party, and the Green Party are 5 of the 8 parties with representation in Parliament. (The Pirate Party has 2 people representing Sweden in the European Parliament.)

In the US there's the two major parties, and Bernie Sanders as the only self-described socialist in Congress. In non-national offices there is a handful of Greens and Libertarians. When was the last time you saw people who were self-described as something other than Republican, Democrat, or independent as a regular commentator on a political discussion show in the US?

That seems like a lack of political diversity in the US, compared to Sweden.

[ptaipale]

parties each had their own march

Sure, but they were all Protestant Social Democrats, nevertheless. I mean, they may call themselves Marxists or Sweden Democrats or Red Front or whatever, but still they'll fundamentally believe in a society where everything's lagom.

But of course there's been political diversity in the Nordics; however e.g. the likes of Arvo Kustaa Halberg were a bit too politically diverse to live in Finland so moved to the U.S.

[dalke]

All Protestant Social Democrats? Here I thought only the Social Democrats were Social Democrats. I think you mean 'social democrats', meaning the belief and not membership in the party named 'Social Democrats.'

To think that the Christian Democrats, which were founded out of the movement against removing religious education from elementary schools and is most strong with the evangelical Christians, has the same idea of "lagom" as the Left Party is like saying that the US parties are the same because they all support a free market.

All Protestant? Given the number of atheists in Sweden, that's also unlikely.

I looked up a bit about Arvo Kustaa Halberg. As far as I can tell, he never lived in Finland or any of the Nordic countries. "Hall was born Arvo Kustaa Halberg in 1910 to Matt (Matti) and Susan (Susanna) Halberg in Cherry, a rural community on Northern Minnesota's Mesabi Iron Range" says Wikipedia.

I see no evidence that he moved from Finland to the US, much less that the move was based on a lack of diversity, so I fail to understand your point.

[ptaipale]

Well, what I meant is that fundamentally, Swedes are - or at least have been - very homogeneous, when compared to Americans. Even where people have labeled themselves with various extreme political affiliations, their way of thinking has been not too different from each other.

Some of my pronouncedly Atheist friends who have worked in Saudi Arabia have told about this. There, when you apply for visa/work permit, you have to state your religion in the application. There's no box to tick "Atheist" or "Agnostic". They ticked "Christian", and later said that this is where they realized how deeply they are products of Evangelic Protestant culture.

Gus Hall of course was born in Minnesota - he couldn't have stood as a presidential candidate unless he were born in the U.S. But he inherited his political affiliations from his parents, who came from Grand Duchy of Finland, where they were indeed too diverse to be palatable those days.

[dalke]

My comments are not about ethnic diversity. You said 'nordic countries are much more homogeneous than the US, ethnically and politically' and I objected to the term 'politically.' (I reserve the right to object to 'ethnically', but I don't wish to have that argument.)

In order for me to understand your views better, could you explain how the US is less politically homogeneous than Sweden, and also how ethnic homogeneity necessarily implies political homogeneity?

I look at the nationalist politics of the Sweden Democrats, the democratic socialism of the Left Party, and the liberal conservatism of the Moderate party, and see three quite different political philosophies with independent party representation in national politics. The Sweden Democrats think immigration has been a failure, the Center party wants more immigration. The Christian Democrats with their anti-homosexuality position, were the only party to decline to participate in the Stockholm Pride parade.

I look at the US and see only two real national parties, with planks which are moderate for one and conservative with the other. While there are certainly a wide range of differences in the people who make up the party, the obligation is to support others of ones own party, and the voting patterns reflect that homogeneity.

You wrote "But of course there's been political diversity in the Nordics; however e.g. the likes of Arvo Kustaa Halberg were a bit too politically diverse to live in Finland so moved to the U.S." Then you wrote that it was actually his parents who had to make the move, due to their political viewpoints. This makes me feel like you are having difficulties in explaining your point. Could you elaborate?

As far as I can tell, his parents were Wobblies. The IWW started in 1905 in the US and Gus Hall was born in 1910. That's very little time for the movement to make it to Finland, his parents to become Wobblies, feel like they have to leave Finland, and migrate to the US.

In any case, Finland was an autonomous part of the Russian Empire until 1917. As best as I could tell, socialism was not an oppressed political viewpoint in Finland in and around 1900. Eg, the Finnish Labour Party started in 1899 and changed their name to the Social Democratic Party in 1903, which remains as a party. The Communist Party of Finland was banned in 1923, but that's well after Hall's family moved to the US, and it still had behind-the-scenes influence on Finnish politics.

Would you please elaborate on how his parents' political viewpoints lead them to leave Finland for the US? And elaborate on how politics in pre-independence Finland reveals insight into a lack of modern political diversity in the Nordic countries? (Though I would prefer that you stay with Sweden, since that was my point.)

Nixon famously tried to get John Lennon deported because of the singer's involvement in the anti–Vietnam War movement. The courts eventually decided against selective deportation for political reasons, but Lennon also had the money and connections to fight that battle. Does this show a similar lack of enthusiasm towards political diversity in 1960s US?

[ptaipale]

The political systems in U.S. and Nordics are different, much of it coming from election systems. The U.S. "first past the post" guides to a two-party system where the different views are merged to one political party and battles are fought within the parties, while Nordics have many parties - even if social democrats have been quite dominant - and voters choose between these. But the parties however overlap a lot. Your average Sweden Democrat is not much unlike your average Social Democrat, really. In fact, he's probably just a disillusioned Social Democrat. So number of parties is not a very good measure of diversity one way or the other.

The U.S. can produce, even within one political party, such diverse politicians and policies as Bill Clinton, Al Sharpton, Zell Miller, Eleanor Smeal, Ben Nelson. Anything from trade union militants to radical feminists, cow farmers and vegan activists, conservative businessmen and firebrand racial demagogues.

Regarding Gus Hall's parents, they didn't just become IWW members when moving to America; I'm sure they and many others like them actually created the IWW as it was. And yes, socialists were not entirely free to operate in Russian Empire. Many decided to emigrate to U.S. and Canada precisely because they sought to escape what they perceived as oppression.

As best as I could tell, socialism was not an oppressed political viewpoint in Finland

Well, it was, a bit. The Tsar's secret police, Okhrana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okhrana ), was set up in 1880 to combat political terrorism and left-wing revolutionary activity. Not everyone who called themselves socialist was rounded up and sent to a camp, the Tsars being more reasonable than their successors, but people like Halbergs must have felt they'd have more room for their ideology in America.

So they left Finland, like many of their comrades left Sweden and Norway, in search of a better life in America. It wasn't all roses there either, and many moved on for the workers' paradise in Soviet Union in 1920's, only to find a few years later themselves rounded up as suspicious elements and meet their end at the construction site for Stalin's Canal. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sea_%E2%80%93_Baltic_Cana... )