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by ChuckMcM 4867 days ago
We can be pedantic, but lets not.

"> Stipulate her assertion: We reject qualified candidates based on superficial and unimportant reasons. Go ask a random person on the street if rejecting a job applicant because they said the word "hoops" is a superficial or unimportant reason. 99 times out of 100 they'll say yes."

Isn't that leaving off a bit of context? Ask them if "Hiring someone who plays hoops on to a team that thinks basketball is a stupid waste of time and recently campaigned against tax payer funding of a local venue for an NBA team." is a smart idea.

You don't walk into a room full of people playing Magic the Gathering and tell them you need three more for a bridge game do you? It's a group of Magic players, not Bridge players.

But the real point is that not being asked to join a community you won't fit in with is a good thing for you and for the community, and it says nothing about your "value" or the communities "value." All it says is that you don't fit there. Further, that "you" the random person, aren't a cultural fit for a group doesn't make that group evil, deceitful, or even wrong.

I understand the point you are making, I don't agree with it. I think 'culture' is a natural outgrowth of 'group' and is not only a reasonable discriminator for choosing to add someone too a group, but also for choosing not to join or to leave a group. That said, I do agree that there are unreasonable discrimination criteria, they are codified by law.

"She's not talking about a cover up. She's not talking about a bunch of evil startup managers sitting in a room thinking about how they can deceive their staff. It doesn't work that way. She's talking about the lies we all tell each other, and how those lies can have negative consequences."

You seem to have a good grasp of what she is thinking which is great, I just don't think she wrote any of what you are asserting as her thoughts, are actually in the text I read.

3 comments

Do you think we should be able to exclude gays in the military because of the negative effects on unit cohesion?

If not, then what's the difference between that and our industry, in many cases, systematically excluding certain groups because it negatively effects their internal culture?

> But the real point is that not being asked to join a community you won't fit in

> with is a good thing for you and for the community

Ya, kid. I know you've wanted to work at a top Silicon Valley startup your whole life...but you know...we just don't think you'd fit in here. Your vibe just isn't quite right in a way we can't even really explain. But you should thank us! You really wouldn't have liked it here anyways. We know better.

> That said, I do agree that there are unreasonable discrimination criteria,

> they are codified by law.

And that law, which is very very hard to enforce, is ignored all the time in the name of culture. See stuff like this: http://www.redditlog.com/snapshot/2626/2887

> I just don't think she wrote any of what you are asserting as her thoughts,

> are actually in the text I read.

Maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there. But if so, I'm not the only one:

https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=prettylittlestatemachi...

That's an awful lot of praise.

Sigh. I don't think we've made much progress but that's okay.

I don't support discrimination. If you have been a victim of discrimination (I have) it sucks, and I feel badly for you.

There are thousands of companies, some work hard all day and night, some have more family values, some see computer code as art, some see it as a means to an end, some aspire to operate as smoothly as possible, some as quickly as possible. Those with corrosive or illegal cultures, fade away. Sometimes not as quickly as we would like but they don't survive. There are many different ports in the world as sailors might say.

I wasn't being dismissive of shanley's article, I felt badly for her as it seems like there is a lot of emotional hurt around this issue for her. You, harryh, are also pretty invested in this issue as well it seems. I hope that you find a company that is a great 'fit' for you and have a really great experience of a solid company culture.

LOL, no we didn't get very far. You continue to make wrong assumptions and now you're being patronizing again.

It was nice talking to you though!

Not every critique is based on "emotional hurt."
> You don't walk into a room full of people playing Magic the Gathering and tell them you need three more for a bridge game do you? It's a group of Magic players, not Bridge players.

I very well might because people aren't one dimensional and an interest in one card game might indicate an interest in others.

> Isn't that leaving off a bit of context? Ask them if "Hiring someone who plays hoops on to a team that thinks basketball is a stupid waste of time and recently campaigned against tax payer funding of a local venue for an NBA team." is a smart idea.

If the team is a political action group, then ok, otherwise it has nothing to do with software.

> Isn't that leaving off a bit of context? Ask them if "Hiring someone who plays hoops on to a team that thinks basketball is a stupid waste of time and recently campaigned against tax payer funding of a local venue for an NBA team." is a smart idea.

There is a big difference between someone who plays some basket ball after work with some friends for their weekly exercise as opposed to what ever white male programmers are doing for sport to stay healthy (... nothing?) to pro sport NBA level players. This is a ridiculous argument.

I rock climb for my sport at work. No one else does. We haven't all gotten into huge arguments or ever been massively distracted by it. Some other people play badminton. Soem go to the gym. Some run. Some swim. Honestly, personal sport preference differences haven't destroyed our company opr even impacted it.

In fact I'm getting pretty tired of this defence of the thesis that "diversity is bad" because that's unproven and in fact I submit it's garbage. I'll posit diversity is actually good and makes things stronger.

But at this point with out either of us providing back up we're pretty much arguing for different world views and aren't going to get much further