[jonathanconway]

Amy, I agree with your analysis, except for what you leave out:

Most couples are like this.

The woman IS a silly, child-like, passive, docile baby, and the guy IS a silly, narcissistic, self-absorbed robot.

These are the ways women behave, and these are the kinds of guys women fall for, because that's what our culture encourages.

If you detect a sexist tone in what I'm saying because I seem to be blaming women, I can only say this: in modern western culture it IS women who ultimately choose who sleeps with who. Criminal activities like rape aside, it is women who choose which guys get to be in a relationship with them and which guys don't. So I don't think it's unfair to attribute the bigger part of this to women.

Anyway just my opinions.

[michaelgrafl]

I'm pretty sure I get to choose who NOT to sleep with, and so do women. All rape aside of course, ho ho ho.

The tone of your comment depresses me. It sounds so bitter. And confused. As if you hadn't had sex or a healthy relationship in a very long time, if ever, and feel powerless to change that.

If it's so, I hope it changes soon.

[jonathanconway]

Yes, but women get to choose WHO TO (positively) sleep with; whereas, as a man, you generally don't have that choice, unless you're extremely famous/wealthy/etc., which you generally don't have control over.

I am bitter and confused about heterosexual relationships, because they seem to contain big contradictions which I can't work out.

I've tried to form a theory that explains most of what I observe in straight female attraction: women are attracted to men who are tall and socially powerful (i.e. popular).

This theory seems to generally hold. Yes, I know there are a multitude of OTHER qualities that women at least SAY they're attracted to.

But I think height and popularity are baseline requirements which are common to most women, regardless of what other requirements they choose stack on top.

Yes, I speak in terms of requirements. It's true.

Dating a woman is like going to a job interview. Any man who's honest knows this.

[jonathanconway]

You know why the tone of my comment depresses you? Because it's true.

It's depressing, because you don't have anything to point to in reality that would refute my viewpoint, because it's just true.

And your success with women isn't based on anything you achieved yourself through your own choices in life.

It's all pre-determined by how tall you are and how many friends you have.

You're full of romantic delusions about actually having some sort of genuine mental connection to the women you date.

I'm revealing the shallowness and emptiness of your ACTUAL relationships.

[ahoyhere]

Sadly, not having a relationship can be a cause or… a symptom. Not speculating about this commenter cuz who the hell knows, but… most of the people I've known who were truly alone were people who drove everyone away.

[jonathanconway]

No need to speculate. I don't have a relationship, and I've never really had a proper relationship.

This isn't something I'm ashamed of, because I don't base my self-esteem on other people's judgements of me.

Especially not on womens' romantic interest, which in my opinion (based on my observations) has a lot more to do with pre-determined evolutionary subconscious emotions than conscious, rational judgement.

[ahoyhere]

"Sure, they're babies! But they're babies with POWER!"

I guess you live in the movie The Incredibles?

[jonathanconway]

I didn't say women have power, I just said women are in control when it comes to sex, in western societies.

This is assuming normal, legal situations. Of course all forms of rape are an exception to this.

There's just no getting around the fact that women CHOOSE to be with men like this.

Those men are "winners" in regard to relationships, except that it's not much of a victory to win the type of women they win.

[jonathanconway]

.

[ahoyhere]

You convinced me. It's a fact! It's a fact because you called it "the fact that."

On a serious note, I'm sorry you feel* that way (* not think, no matter how much you think it's "logical"), but have you ever considered that it's you?

[jonathanconway]

If women don't CHOOSE to be with men like this, then either A) women are with men like this, but not by choice, or B) women aren't with men like this, by choice.

So which is it, Amy?

If most women don't go for men like this, then most relationships aren't like this.

But then why would a profit-seeking company spend the dollars on a video that portrays people like this?

You yourself implied (I think) in a recent tweet, that this company was disregarding ethics to appeal to a mass audience.

"@DanielAmitay well no point in asking THAT, since avg corporate ethics is clear for all to see. :) q: do they KNOW what they're doing?"

If most women aren't like this, who's the company's marketing aimed at? A tiny minority?

And by the way, when did I ever say it wasn't "me"? I'm not claiming any moral high-ground here.

I never said women shouldn't be the way they are.

If I'm upset, it's just because I happen to lose out in today's culture.

But I never said (or even implied) that the culture should change. The culture is what it is and I am what I am, and I just have to deal with that.

[MDS100]

Who cares what most couples/women are like. You are on here, so you'll tend to find a very small proportion of women attractive. (presuming higher than average intelligence) If you are proactive enough to choose in your dating life, you wouldn't complain about the culture. That's just externalizing the sources of your problems.

"If I'm upset, it's just because I happen to lose out in today's culture." Make the most out of yourself and play the numbers game. The culture is better than at any point in the past. More choice, more freedom for both sides (it's not a war or a competition - everybody wins). You just "loose" if you don't invest in yourself and overcome fears.

[jonathanconway]

> play the numbers game

Meaning, just make a complete doormat of myself. Go on as many dates as possible, buy women as many things as possible, just keep giving and giving more and more.

And maybe one day, some woman who no one likes will decide to give me a go, as a last ditch resort, and I'll get lucky for a night or two before she dumps me for someone with higher status.

But of course I must not have enough "self esteem" to do all that.

> If you are proactive enough to choose in your dating life

Oh I have all the choice in the world.

I mean, I can literally CHOOSE who will reject me.

I can approach any woman anywhere and get a rejection within 5 minutes.

That's wonderful.

And the internet makes it even easier, because now, I don't even have to know of the rejection.

I can just send off 100 messages to 100 women and get 0 responses after 5 days, and just assume that I was rejected.

Technology makes life so much easier!

[ahoyhere]

You think we're having a big debate, but we're not. Your central thesis: "Most couples are like this. Women are like x. Men are like y." You have zero evidence for this. We're not having a discussion at all. I am saying "There's no evidence" and you're arguing with tautologies -- "If women don't CHOOSE to be with men like this, then either A) women are with men like this, but not by choice, or B) women aren't with men like this, by choice." That false binary choice includes a big assumption. Do you see it?

I never claimed that narcissism like in the video is prevalent… nor did I claim that it isn't. What I said was "This video is from a wholly narcissistic viewpoint."

I didn't say THIS company was disregarding ethics. I made no judgment other than "this is narcissistic" and (in that twitter conversation you extracted) "This video isn't guy-focused, it's narcissist-focused. If I was a guy, I'd find Couple's apparent opinion of me insulting."

The tweet you excerpted was from from a separate, subsequent conversation:

DANIEL: I meant my original tweet slightly in jest: Could a company potentially be OK with their sexist video if it got them results?

ME: well no point in asking THAT, since avg corporate ethics is clear for all to see. :) q: do they KNOW what they're doing?

You COULD rebut the idea that the average corporation will gladly use sexism to sell things, but it would be a waste of your breath.

My question: "Do they KNOW what they're doing? Do they SEE what they're portraying with their video? Do they know what narcissism is?" is a useful one, on the other hand.

You said:

> If most women aren't like this, who's the company's marketing aimed at? A tiny minority?

Tautology. "It must work, or else why would they do it?" This is not a safe assumption. See again my useful question above.

[jonathanconway]

> You think we're having a big debate, but we're not

True, because you're not coming out and saying what you think is true; you're just attacking my statements.

> That false binary choice includes a big assumption. Do you see it?

Just one? I think it includes several, but I tried to narrow it down to what I guessed you would think the most likely possibilities are.

Maybe you don't think women have a choice. Maybe you don't think there's such a thing as free will at all.

I don't have time to second-guess every possible opinion you might have; I'm offering my own opinion and trying to ferret out what yours is.

> If I was a guy, I'd find Couple's apparent opinion of me insulting

And you never say why. Is that a moral judgement on your part?

> My question: "Do they KNOW what they're doing? Do they SEE what they're portraying with their video? Do they know what narcissism is?" is a useful one

Is it one you intend to find the answer to?

I think it's pretty clear, from having observed a whole range of marketing material and cultural artifacts (TV shows, etc) that this really is how people think about relationships, and that this company is appealing to that thinking in this ad.

I don't have a massive amount of statistical data to prove this, but I don't have a high regard for statistics anyway. I think it's better to consider as evidence things you can observe directly, rather than having faith that some bean-counter is getting his stats right.

Sorry if I come off as a whiner, but I think human beings generally like to express themselves when something in life is upsetting/depressing to them, and I don't see why I should have to shut up and put up just because I'm a guy.