[rbn]

This is for people who want tablet + laptop but dont want carry+charge+pay for 2 devices. It's really not that difficult to understand, I dont know why HN has such a hard time understanding this.

"But the iPad is a better tablet!!!", yeh but the surface is a full system. "But the air is better laptop!!" yeh but the surface has tablet capabilities. "Buy an Air + iPad!!" I dont want to pay extra plus its a hassle to carry + manage 2 devices

[rayiner]

I don't think HN has a hard time understanding it, they just think it's not going to be a successful product. Device consolidation is always tricky, but for it to be really successful the integrated device has to be "good enough" in both areas. E.g. people don't buy consumer digital cameras anymore because cell phone cameras are perfectly serviceable.

Is the Surface Pro a "good enough" laptop? I'd argue no, not with the keyboard/trackpad situation and lack of a rigid connecting hinge. Ars's review noted as much. As it a "good enough" tablet? I'd argue no, not with the weight, heat, and short battery life.

Now, obviously "good enough" is in the eye of the beholder. When people rag on Surface Pro, the thinking is that it's not going to be "good enough" in both roles for the majority of customers, and as such isn't going to sell.

The situation is complicated by the fact that the unit is priced at more serious users, those who can't get away with an iPad + keyboard attachment by itself. Those users are more likely to see the keyboard/trackpad issue as a deal breaker for serious work. Less serious users, who don't need the extra capability, have no reason to look at it over an iPad.

Also, don't forget about how 7" tablets factor into the equation, because they make it more practical to carry a laptop + tablet. An 11.6" MBA + iPad Mini 16GB will run you $1330 versus about $1030 for 64GB for the Surface, and weigh in at around a pound heavier. But, in return you get more combined screen real estate, more combined storage, and triple the combined battery life.

[rbn]

I've only played around with the surface in the stores.

To me this is the first iteration of a brand new form factor. Of course it has problems. But the great thing is that the other companies like Lenovo, ASUS,HP..ect will look at this and hopefully see its problems and iterate on it. Also the new intel CPU is aimed at this form factor, which is suppose to cut heat and battery use to "near" ARM levels.

For me it will be amazing to have 1 product for everything. Ubuntu on my tablet? sure! hook up to external monitor, write on it, type on the screen, type on the mini keyboard, type on a full keyboard? all possible.

[bruceboughton]

When was the last time Lenovo, Asus or HP innovated on anything? They can knock out solid PCs but they are not innovators in PC hardware (any more).

[scholia]

So you don't think the Asus Transformer represented any sort of hardware innovation? The Asus Padphone? The Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon? The TouchSmart 9300 Elite? Really?

[bruceboughton]

Asus Transformer & PadFone - perhaps. I'm far from convinced though.

Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon - what is the innovation? Carbon Fiber?

TouchSmart 9300 Elite - an iMac clone with an external power brick?

[scholia]

You need to do more product research. What's the point of claiming a "lack of innovation" if you don't actually have a clue what innovations these products offer?

[bjustin]

>To me this is the first iteration of a brand new form factor.

Yes! It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

The first Macbook Air significantly compromised to achieve its form factor, and now the Surface is doing the same. If Microsoft can fix the compromises in two years like Apple did with the MBA, they could have a real winner.

[edtechdev]

Also, there is choice. There is the Asus Transformer Book coming out, which is perhaps even more powerful (i7) and has a dockable keyboard with extra battery. Or if you want something not as powerful but lighter weight, without a noisy fan, and much better battery life, there is the Asus Vivotab TF810C out now, or the Samsung ATIV Smart PC, although they have the clovertrail atom processor which looks like may not allow installing Linux.

[rbanffy]

> although they have the clovertrail atom processor which looks like may not allow installing Linux.

That's probably going to be solved soon. The incentive to build X86 android tablets is high and, by judging the battery life of the Atom powered Motorola phone, it'll be a very attractive option.

[rdtsc]

It is about execution. Then it is the difference between:

  *) I got an awesome tablet + laptop [best case]
   
  *) Ok laptop but crappy as a tablet (heavy, slow...) [meh]

  *) Ok tablet but crappy laptop (don't have access to all the tools, too restrictive, bad keyboard...) [meh]

  *) Crappy tablet and crappy laptop. [complete disappointment]

[rbn]

Agreed. I never said that the Surface is a perfect device, it has its problems but its a step in the right direction. For me at least.

I want to see the consolidation of tablets and laptops. I dont care who does it. If iOS and Android become good enough for me to replace my laptop then great!

[rayiner]

The question is: how important is consolidation as a feature? Surface Pro doesn't let you do anything that you couldn't already do with your laptop + tablet. That's a crucial point in comparison to the iPad, because iPad was better for on-the-go media consumption (or on-the-couch media consumption) than either a smart phone or a laptop. The value-add in the Surface Pro, then, is just consolidation.

With existing technology, that consolidation involves a lot of compromises. My MBA + my iPad Mini may be heavier than a Surface Pro, but combined get 14-15 hours of battery life, which means I can pretty easily leave the charger at home. Can you leave the Surface Pro charger at home? With only 3-5 hours, no you can't. The combo gives me a choice of two screen sizes (13" and 8") as well as the ability to use both screens at once (say looking up documentation on the Mini while coding on the MBA). And the MBA has a far superior keyboard and trackpad.

Does consolidation outweigh those other advantages? I don't think it will except for a narrow class of people. Surface Pro is really threading the needle--targeting users who need more than just a tablet by itself (which most people don't), but also don't need a portable screen bigger than 10" or a good keyboard.

[scholia]

It's much simpler and more convenient to use one device than two, which is why people no longer use Palm PDAs. This doesn't mean Surface Pro is the best form factor for everyone. Surface Pro has about the same battery life as a MacBook Air, but it could be much longer if the keyboard had a second battery.

That was the idea behind the Asus Transformer, and in hardware terms, it works very well. (The software is another story.)

Of course, the resulting weight would be more like carrying both an MBA and an iPad as well, but at least you wouldn't have to pay for two motherboards, two screens, two keyboards, two sets of RAM etc.

In passing, you don't get longer battery life if you use two devices at the same time, as in your example. And if you search on one screen while coding on the other, the Surface Pro is dramatically better. You get real multi-tasking and two apps side by side on the tablet screen, and you can copy and paste between the tablet and the desktop, or use a Share charm to send stuff from one app to another. Basically, you're using the iPad mini like a book, aren't you?

[mikeash]

What are "tablet capabilities", exactly? If the size and weight are similar, what does "tablet" get you that "laptop" doesn't?

[rahoulb]

Changing my position.

The fact that I can hold it like a book/piece of paper/clipboard means I can shift my position whilst using it - whether that is leaning back in my seat, or walking around the house/office - in a way that's just not practical with a laptop.

[rbn]

Touchscreen, digitizer..ect. Also when you detach the keyboard it has the tablet form factor. So you can easily use it on the couch or whatever.

[TylerE]

Touchscreen.

[dragontamer]

A ton of the new Windows 8 Laptops have touchscreen capabilities now. So... not really.

In fact, Asus Windows 8 Laptops will soon have Leap Motion, which is a far far superior option to touch screen. Hopefully Apple follows suit with their Macbook Pros.

To be fair, I'm not as excited about Surface anymore, as I am more excited about everyone else actually. XPS 12 duo seems to be the superior convertible, and the soon to be Lenovo Helix is the best executed detachable that I've seen so far. XPS Duo 12, Helix, and Surface all offer 1080p. Surface's major differentiator is actually the pressure sensitive pen that comes bundled with the device. I'd expect the Surface to be the best artist tool of the tablet / laptops out so far. Asus differentiating themselves with the Leap Motion puts them on my radar though.

But really, it goes to show that with Windows 8, you have a ton of good choices coming up. Whats most important? Solid Keyboard / Nub / Touchpad ? Get the Lenovo Helix.

Wanna experiment with futuristic controls? Get a Asus Leap-based Windows 8 convertible when they come out.

Like the Pen? Get the surface.

[stcredzero]

> In fact, Asus Windows 8 Laptops will soon have Leap Motion, which is a far far superior option to touch screen

How do you know? Have you tried it yourself? Have you tried it outside a demo context? Have you played an extended gaming session? Done actual context creation? You'd have to have done all that before you know it's not, "Hello 1989 called. Wants its Powerglove back."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Glove

I know of what I speak. I interfaced a Mac with one in 1989.

[dragontamer]

Independent reviews of the developer kits of Leap Motion have started coming in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhItSt5zHyQ