[randomdata]

You definitely make some great points. I do, however, wonder why you consider business skills a positive quality, but being a sex toy a negative quality? Neither is inherently good or inherently bad.

I expect it is because the woman is viewed as a sex toy without getting to choose to be one? However, the stereotype about a man's wallet seems to play into the same idea. A man who looks wealthy is going to be assumed to be a smart businessman, even if he wishes to not be seen that way.

I admit that I still don't fully understand, and maybe it is impossible for me to fully do so, but I'm glad we can talk openly about it to learn more.

- "I suggest to challenge yourselves and go out to a gay night club on a Friday night."

I have actually done this and found it to be a fun and positive experience. Nothing creepy or uncomfortable about it. I guess I am, perhaps, too ugly to have experienced what you are talking about?

[mercurial]

> You definitely make some great points. I do, however, wonder why you consider business skills a positive quality, but being a sex toy a negative quality? Neither is inherently good or inherently bad. > > I expect it is because the woman is viewed as a sex toy without getting to choose to be one? However, the stereotype about a man's wallet seems to play into the same idea. A man who looks wealthy is going to be assumed to be a smart businessman, even if he wishes to not be seen that way.

But society does not see businessmen in the same light as sex toys. At all.

The problem is that we've been living in a patriarcal society for a long, long while. Sending the message "women are sex toys" also means "women are sex toys, nothing more - they are here for your enjoyment". It's a message that they are not in a position of power, contrary to the businessman. They are not equal.

> I have actually done this and found it to be a fun and positive experience. Nothing creepy or uncomfortable about it. I guess I am, perhaps, too ugly to have experienced what you are talking about?

It's a bit difficult to explain. Imagine suddenly that somebody sees you as just a piece of meat, ready to be consumed and thrown out afterward. This is not a pleasant feeling. And congrats for challenging yourself!

[randomdata]

So would you say the root problem is our puritan shame of sex, as I suggested earlier? If a sexual person was held in the same regard as a business person, wouldn't that be something to strive towards, not shy away from?

"It's a bit difficult to explain. Imagine suddenly that somebody sees you as just a piece of meat, ready to be consumed and thrown out afterward. This is not a pleasant feeling."

See, I wish people would value me for my body in that way. It is the constant having to prove myself with my mind, instead, that made me think of the original comparison. Without being able to fully understand what you are feeling, it seems like it could be the same thing in many ways – ultimately rejecting what you have and seeking what you don't have.

[mercurial]

> So would you say the root problem is our puritan shame of sex, as I suggested earlier? If a sexual person was held in the same regard as a business person, wouldn't that be something to strive towards, not shy away from?

Well, it already is... for men. A man with many sexual partners is looked favourably upon. A woman doing the same is called a slut. There is a gender imbalance built into our society, and until such time as a majority of men recognize it, it will keep being there. But it is a question of equality and power more than sexuality. Just as if you systematically represented male CEOs and female secretaries in the media. This wouldn't be about sex, but would be equally problematic.

> See, I wish people would value me for my body in that way. It is the constant having to prove myself with my mind that made me think of the original comparison. Without being able to fully understand what you are feeling, it seems like it could be the same thing in many ways – ultimately rejecting what you have and seeking what you don't have.

You have a point here. I'd say the problem is treating people as the means to an end - whether as sex toys, problem-solving machines or plain old cannon fodder.

[randomdata]

"I'd say the problem is treating people as the means to an end - whether as sex toys, problem-solving machines or plain old cannon fodder."

I don't know if I can speak for all men, but personally, having someone to want you to do something for them is where self-worth is derived. Whether someone wants to have sex, or a business wants to hire you for you services, it feels good to be wanted. That seems like the exact opposite of a problem, from my unique perspective. And maybe it is foolish to have those feelings, but it largely outside of my control. Assuming you represent the prevailing views of most women, and the gender divide on this is real, it is clear to see how we got here.

Interestingly, I've noticed this pattern even outside of gender differences. People generally push on other people what they want for themselves, male and female. Even my aforementioned college example is a great one here. Someone who wants to go to college will think everyone should go to college and push that idea upon them, even if it is not the wishes of someone else. I don't know where you even begin to fix that; it seems to be the human condition.

[mercurial]

> I don't know if I can speak for all men, but personally, having someone to want you to do something for them is where self-worth is derived. Whether someone wants to have sex, or a business wants to hire you for you services, it feels good to be wanted. That seems like the exact opposite of a problem, from my unique perspective. And maybe it is foolish to have those feelings, but it largely outside of my control. Assuming you represent the prevailing views of most women, and the gender divide on this is real, it is clear to see how we got here.

The difference is whether you are treated as valueable or as a commodity. In both cases, you can be made to feel "wanted" but completely different ways.