[thaumaturgy]

HN has all the properties of a club, it's just very cheap to get in. It's certainly possible to be kicked out of the club (just ask LoseThos/SparrowOS); so, since HN continues to accept angersock as a member, why is he still here?

[tptacek]

Terry Davis is schizophrenic and his HN accounts feed random noise into threads; at times, the noise is more than just disruptive. He hasn't been "kicked off" of HN. If he created an account tomorrow and used it to post coherently, or even just in a markedly different way than he uses the site today, that account would not get banned.

The point 'angersock and I are both making is that it's not that HN is a different kind of club or a better club. It's the fact that it's not a club that makes it relevant. Overtly clubby alternative sites (with invite-only participation) are destined to fail, for reasons both obvious and subtle.

You say HN has all the properties of a club. But it doesn't:

* There's no shared purpose or interest, unless you count typing words into text boxes as that.

* There's no membership.

* There's no bar to entry.

* Half the site's participants are anonymous; for all I know, you and "angersock" are the same person.

[thaumaturgy]

I disagree with most of your statements here, but I don't think this is an argument worth having. angersock & I already circled back to the main point elsethread and settled it.

[angersock]

Personally, I stay for the drinks and ambiance. :)

More seriously: tptacek hit it on the head. This isn't an invite-only club where I was required to apply. This is a community where you may be banned for bad behavior (as I am acutely aware), but otherwise you are somewhat free to exist as an independent vendor in the marketplace of ideas.

An online community which is exclusive enough that I need apply is probably not going to line up nicely with my preferences or with (I suggest) the idea of offering free debate and discussion.

This is especially true given their karma model, which as others here have pointed out somewhat encourages hivemind attenuation especially since it is annoying to get into and join.

[thaumaturgy]

> This isn't an invite-only club where I was required to apply.

"Club" does not imply those things though. It only implies membership, and everyone with a working account on HN is a member. I realize I'm being pedantic, but it's to make a point about your earlier comment.

> An online community which is exclusive enough that I need apply is probably not going to line up nicely with my preferences or with (I suggest) the idea of offering free debate and discussion.

OK, so this at least is a point worth making. All you're saying is that you don't like the analogy of living in a gated community. Cool, I can accept that. But that's a personal preference; it doesn't make gated communities inherently bad, and there are still lots of people that prefer to live in them.

(For the record, I dislike actual gated communities.)

> This is especially true given their karma model, which as others here have pointed out somewhat encourages hivemind attenuation especially since it is annoying to get into and join.

I don't think "hivemind" is a smart criticism (see also http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5136265), and I think that we won't know whether or not their karma model will work until it's been tried.

Remember Slashdot's moderation model?

[angersock]

I think Slashdot has a pretty fun model, if you are referring to the point system. My favorite moderation model so far is SA's, because it actually adds value instead of merely deterring vandalism. That's also why seeing pg post here is nice.

It is very much my preference, but I do think that ultimately we'll be able to show and justify that gated marketplaces of ideas are objectively bad (as exemplified by community-created filter bubbles, etc.).

Edit: No idea why people are downvoting you. You raised a few good points for discussion. C'mon HN. :(