[samstave]

Nostalgia Scam Time:

Back in the late 90s there was a common scam run against big-ish offices.

A caller would call asking to talk to the person in charge of printers, typically either IT or Facilities.

Once connected they would say that they are sending out the recipients free gift, which was some lame piece of electronics - often a small television. They would get the work address and confirmation to ship the free gift. They would claim that along with the free gift - they would send a sample toner cartridge that had "super fine toner in it, certified by HP to last 3 times as long as other toner cartridges"

Then, along with the free gift, a PALLET of toner cartridges would be sent - along with an invoice for some ridiculous amount.

When I got my first call about these "super fine toner cartridges" - I got suspicious and contacted HP. They told me about the scam - but that it was hard to find the people. They asked me to get as much info as I could from them if they called again. I got a call again, got as much info as I could without accepting the offer for the free gift - but they wound up sending it to me, along with the pallet of cartridges as well.

HP came to my office and picked it all up after contacting them again.

Over the years - I received more of these calls - and as soon as they brought up toner and free gifts, I tol them I knew the scam they were running - and they would promptly hang up on me...

[raverbashing]

There's some law against postal fraud that says whatever they send you though the post is yours (to avoid exactly this kind of scam)

You can try not paying the invoice and see what happens.

[ChuckMcM]

Yeah and then they retaliate by sending you two pallets of crap toner cartridges, had enough? No? Still not going to pay? Ok here are five pallets of crap toner cartridges sitting in your mail room. Call up the dump, "What? Toner? That probably a toxic waste, you'll have to make an appointment and pay the extortionate hazardous waste fee." Then the toner guy calls back "You either pay us or next time it will be 10 pallets."

[ceol]

That doesn't seem like a cost-effective way to scam someone. The victim could just sell the toner themselves, right?

Sounds pretty stupid.

[ChuckMcM]

Because it is a scam, the toner isn't viable toner. The SJ Mercury news had a story on this during the great re-inking (people refilling ink carts, HP retaliating) and this particular scam was tied to people getting 'scrap' toner (which is they offered to dispose of unused/old/not-to-spec toner, got paid to do so, took it and poured it into plastic toner holders and then tried to sell it as 'oem' or 'extra fine' toner etc) There were complaints that it clogged printers, had smearing issues, and cost money to throw away. So the scammers were getting it on both ends, money to dispose it, and money from people tricked into buying it. The key here is that if there were a legitimate way/value to selling this toner they wouldn't be using it in their scam, they would just be selling it.

[Symmetry]

At that point it's extortion and you can tell the police where the criminals are going to show up. No different than any other "We're going to keep dumping stuff on your lawn until you pay us protection money."

[lazerwalker]

Is there a reason you couldn't just refuse delivery?

[samstave]

Yeah - this was in 1997...

[mistercow]

I think that law dates back decades. I don't think it applies to non USPS carriers though. That said my Google-fu is weak against this particular law.

[Spooky23]

It's not a postal thing, I believe it's common law. If someone ships you something unsolicited, you are under no obligation to return the item or make payment.

[mistercow]

Aha! "Unsolicited" was the missing piece in the Google puzzle. It's actually not common law. It's 39 USC § 3009: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/39/3009, and was passed in the Postal Reorganization Act of 1970.

I believe this was originally in response to shoe manufacturers mailing people shoes and then invoicing for them if they weren't sent back.

As for whether it applies to non-USPS shipments, I have strong doubts. The law says "mail", and my understanding is that because the USPS is a protected monopoly, non-USPS carriers are explicitly not mail services.

[larrys]

Rest assured that this was going on with copiers in the early 80's as well!

[doktrin]

I'm a little unclear as to how how exactly they planned to enforce payment for un-solicited toner. What am I missing?

[Mahn]

Sending random invoices to companies hoping they'll just pay without thinking about it is a pretty common scam actually. Here in Germany for instance you start getting dozens of fake invoices via ordinary mail the exact second you register a new company, and I guess it's not very different in other countries.

[samstave]

They're scam is that when they invoice - they hope that the company is big enough to the point where A/P just pays it when they say "Yeah so-and-so in IT confirmed this order" -- they are hoping that the initial contact and the AP departments dont talk.

[njharman]

Then why even bother sending a pallet of toner? Lots of other invoicing scams "invoice" for non-existent stuff.

[coryl]

Perhaps for psychological effect

[illuminate]

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus24-avoiding-office-supp...

They threaten, talk to A/P directly and demand payment (skipping over the original agent), all sorts of ways.

[Pinatubo]

How long ago was this written? They make reference to ordering typewriter ribbons ...

[illuminate]

The PDF says March of 2000, but it was probably around for decades beforehand :)

[samstave]

Exactly.

[X-Istence]

No nostalgia required ... they still call, even the small business I work for gets at least one or two calls for toner cartridges and we work for your printing company a month.

[JoblessWonder]

Yup. They are still around and pretty ruthless. They get the printer models on the first call from a receptionist or someone "I'm calling about fixing the printer... that's a... HP... right? No? Konica, yeah, that's right we have that change in our forms."

Then they call back again and ask for the person in charge of ordering toner and reference the exact model. Sigh. Almost as bad as the "yellow page" people.

[eli]

I've had not just people calling, but a door-to-door toner salesperson visit as recently as last year.