[ditonal]

Well, I'm a nerd but I do agree with the bully. I don't think that the severity of a crime should be judged by a victim's reaction to it. While I see how a suicide might bring notoriety to a problem, I don't think it changes the nature of what was done. It's similar to the Tyler Clementi case, who killed himself because he was being videotaped in gay acts by his roommate. I never thought it was fair that the bully in this case would be held accountable for essentially the entirety of our society's homophobia just because his actions were the final straw. He should have been punished the same that anybody would be for video taping their roommate in a sexual act and publishing it online (which I do recognize as severe bullying and very wrong). I believe that his official charges were along those lines, but it was clear it was being taken more seriously because of the suicide.

The other thing I hate is the concept of "The" Bully. It's easy to imagine a sick, hateful person, most importantly someone else, and individual bullies certainly exist, but I think the far more common situation is where the bully is a group of people. I think one way to 'Stop Bullying' is to help people understand when they are bullying, instead of just imagining it's something someone else does. I doubt there that many people that never had an adolescent moment where they 'ganged up' on someone (verbally) to feel like they belonged more in a group, or just to give an outsider or a 'runt' of the group a hard time, because it's such an instinctive thing to do. So much so that it's a huge theme of Lord of the Flies, a book everybody reads in high school, but rarely views within the context of their own life.

The most ironic thing about these stop bullying campaigns is so very, very often they reflect the same group bullying mentality they purport to be fighting. All these people 'ganging up' on the prosecutors in this case are example of that. I'm not saying this wasn't a failure of our justice system that should be fixed, only that it at times this is seeming awfully like a witch hunt.

[dpatru]

> It's similar to the Tyler Clementi case, who killed himself because he was being videotaped in gay acts by his roommate. I never thought it was fair that the bully in this case would be held accountable . . .

This is an unfair analogy. Don't compare a college roommate with a US Attorney. First, they don't have the same moral training: the roommate is young and still in school, while the prosecutor has spent years in school studing justice and is near the top of a profession with the primary goal of doing justice. Second, their acts aren't comparable: the roommate acted on a sick, misguided impulse intending to embarrass, while the prosecutor deliberately over the course of many months and spending many thousands of dollars intended to force a kid to admitting to a felony and to agree to spend months in prison.

There is a clear bully here and it's not the people protesting Carmen Ortiz's actions.

[vijayr]

roommate acted on a sick, misguided impulse intending to embarrass

Pretty much. Also, the roommate had nothing much to gain, politically or career wise.

[Wilduck]

Slovette: I'm writing this just to let you know that it looks like you were hell-banned 199 days ago (all your posts are automatically marked [dead]). It seems like you've been making a lot of worthwhile contributions since then, so I thought I'd inform you that it might be worth making a new account.

It looks like the likely cause of the banning was a link you submitted advertising windows 8 at a reduced price.

For anyone else reading this, sorry if it is off topic, but I think Slovette (and really any contributing member) deserves to know they've been hell-banned.

[evolve2k]

Wow such irony in this post, we sit here and cry fowl of unjust and harsh treatment and on face value it smells likes a case of prosecution overreach right in our own backyard.

[wpietri]

> I believe that his official charges were along those lines, but it was clear it was being taken more seriously because of the suicide.

Consequences have consequences.

If you, like every teen ever, fuck around behind the wheel, probably nothing will happen to you. If you are unlucky, you might get a minor ticket. Run over a child, though, and you're in for a world of hurt. Even though exactly the same amount of youthful off-goofing and bad driving is involved.

[infinite8s]

What, this makes no sense. In the second case your bad driving directly caused injury to someone (I'm assuming in the first case you do something stupid like drive into a tree).

[wpietri]

Right. Consequences (of your bad actions) have consequences (for you). We're in agreement.

I'm saying this to contradict ditonal's claim that bullies shouldn't be treated differently when their bullying contributes to suicide.

[ible]

We judge and punish actions by their consequences. We give some consideration to how likely the consequences were, and some to how socially acceptable the actions were. Examples abound, including drunk or dangerous driving, getting in a fist fight that kills someone, or bullying.

Ortiz's actions were one cause of Aaron's death, and she is being judged on that basis. She probably will not face serious consequences because her actions fit a norm. Hopefully those actions will become less socially acceptable, much like bullying in recent years.

[pdonis]

I don't think that the severity of a crime should be judged by a victim's reaction to it.

I agree with this, but it's not the same as saying that the bully's conduct was OK. Even if it's true that there has been overreaction to the treatment of Aaron Swartz, to the point of that being bullying as well, that just means there is wrong on both sides.

[slovette]

Great view point. I have two thoughts here to add:

One, bullying is not a new occurrence. Most of us grew up to be fine and arguably stronger (and there was one year I probably got punched or my head slammed in a locker 4 out of the 5 days in the week). So what’s changed today that this generation of children can’t seem to grow past it? It’s become a devastating ordeal with kids committing suicide and whatnot; thoughts that NEVER went through my head growing up. Shit sucked, but I knew it wasn’t permanent.

Two, are we coddling our children so much in the new era of child rearing technics that we’ve stripped them of the notion to grow and learn from the hurtful things in life? Are we teaching them to drop responsibility for the outcome of our environment in a pity me plea? I only ask because when things would happen to me, the first thing my mother would ask is “Well, did you do anything to provoke him?” and even if I hadn’t it forced the notion through my head that I ultimately control my environment by my behavior. Shit happens and I get that, but my mother didn’t go to the principal’s office, talk to the other kid’s parents or call the police. I simply learned to cope and, well, manipulate. Bluff toughness when necessary; kill with kindness when that was necessary. You learn to change your environment by changing your own behavior and in effect provoking others to change theirs. Probably the most valuable lesson I’ve ever learned.

One could highlight that the internet has changed the face of bullying. Whereas my generation (y) and the ones preceding me had to grow through physical bullying abuse, and today bullying has changed to public humiliation happening in front of thousands of people thanks to the internet. I could see that being a major factor in the change of effect.

I don’t believe simply removing bullying from adolescent life is the answer. I think it’s an easy one to exploit, but I really don’t think it’s the only answer we’re looking for. Bullies are a part of life and stripping our kids of the experience is only going to leave them helpless as adults. I agree fully that things need to change, but I also have a point of view that most of the time these terrible things that happen to us make us stronger.

It’s a thought provoking subject really and I curious to see some responses.

[userulluipeste]

I think one way to 'Stop Bullying' is to help people understand when they are bullying, instead of just imagining it's something someone else does.

It's just about power, the abuse of power and what you would have respect for. That "helping" sounds ridiculous if it won't come from something/someone that THE BULLY would have respect for (such as police as in the story).

[jyou]

Can not agree with you more.