[w1ntermute]

After the discussion I had with jrockway in this thread[0], I've come to really dislike the Svbtle network and what it stands for. I can't speak for the rest of the community, but I would consider Svbtle branding to be a strike against a blog, and not something that is a sign of its quality.

0: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4993094

[mnicole]

ITT: You neglect to read the two blog posts about the topic you're debating and cast a blanket statement about a guy who was just trying to help the brand and didn't understand the internal conflicts going on at the company. The designer was fired for sharing internal information relevant to the initial blog post he made (letting him know there were competent designers in-house, but not much they could do about typical politics), not because Dustin said their design team sucked.

[bri3d]

Had Dustin simply made suggestions, he'd be trying to help the brand. Instead, he made it personal and demeaned the livelihood of professionals he'd never met. After he received a response, he then went on to make more backhanded jabs, for example saying he was "surprised" that the other designer's work actually looked good.

Telling an unfamiliar company to "fire designers" he hadn't interacted with wasn't helping a brand. It was being a douchebag and demonstrates an astounding lack of maturity and experience at best.

Edit: Dustin responded to a sibling post: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5027792 .

[mnicole]

The idea that anyone on HN is innocent of making statements similar to those he did are laughable, and posts just like them make the front page and are the most-upvoted every day. Are people not allowed to have opinions anymore? It isn't like they hired him to clean up house and that was his approach; he saw a terrible user experience and he gave his advice on how to fix it. Often times, starting fresh is the best way to do that.

A UX architect came forward to apologize and let him know why things were the way they were (again, corporate politics and the design process). AA found the email by scrubbing their Exchange server and fired the guy over discussing that process.

Original complaints: http://www.dustincurtis.com/dear_american_airlines.html

The UX Architect's response: http://www.dustincurtis.com/dear_dustin_curtis.html

Dustin's response to the firing: http://www.dustincurtis.com/incompetence.html

[jessaustin]

I have no opinion of Sᴧbtle, but I can't fault Curtis's conduct in this episode. He offered a completely valid critique of the antiquated web presence of a large and poorly-managed company. When he received a response from someone involved in the production process, he republished it w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶p̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶r̶d̶i̶a̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ [edit: OK that was a bit strong] cordially. It is unfortunate that someone lost a job in a knee-jerk corporate response to that candid exchange. Everyone likes to be employed, but I doubt even that UX person will admit to having lost a good job. I hope the next employer snapped up the person promptly, and I hope that the new organization is much less dysfunctional. Whatever the case, Curtis is responsible neither for the poor culture at AA nor for the erstwhile employee's poor anticipation of the probable response of that culture.

In the meantime, I'll be unchecking "AA" on the sidebar of the Kayak site for the foreseeable future.

[bri3d]

Suggesting people he'd never interacted with in any way (who, mind you, ended up not being the responsible parties anyway) be fired wasn't a valid critique of much of anything.

And I don't think that registering that Dustin was "astounded" that the designer he received the email from had a good portfolio or only admitting to having been "partially wrong" with respect to the firing comment was particularly cordial or respectful, either.

I agree that the whole debacle reflects -much- more poorly on AA than on Curtis, but his conduct wasn't beyond fault by any means either.

[mnicole]

I'm an in-house designer at a company whose print and web design I detest, and I would hardly blame anyone for going off on a rant about it, including telling the company to get rid of their current crop of designers (which can be a part of the problem, because even after shareholder input there are still little things you can do, and often times they can only go off of what they're presented to begin with).

Truth be told, I would be grateful because my voice has gone unheard. That's the name of the game with a lot of in-house design; you make due with implementing non-designer's ideas for a steady paycheck and good benefits.

[tuananh]

Do you have a source saying the designer was actually fired because of sharing internal information?

[protomyth]

batgaijin posted the article link http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/6531610/America... in this comment http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5028019

[teej]

The thread in which you call a person you've never met a douchebag for trying to build something?

[w1ntermute]

You must've missed this post: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4996236

[dcurtis]

I now find those posts somewhat embarrassing. The vitriol was unnecessary and diluted my arguments. In fact, I no longer even link to those articles from my website.

Still, I don't think something I wrote several years ago in a completely different context should impact your opinion of Svbtle as a network.

[oh_sigh]

> I don't think something I wrote several years ago in a completely different context should impact your opinion of Svbtle as a network.

Do you hold others to the same standard? How quickly do you forget about their unrelated past?

The problem you're experiencing is that it is much easier to gain the "douche" label than it is to get rid of it.

[kmfrk]

I think that some - not I - feel this way about Svbtle, because they have an impression that it is a "mindshare" platform rather than a blogging CMS - thus an extension and continuation of the things you have said and done.

People's first impression of Svbtle happened in the context of the whole argybargy surrounding the launch and copied design, and even I didn't get a great impression of Svbtle as a result. People impute, when creators and founders don't explain what the project is about.

Maybe it's time to re-explain what Svbtle is and aspires to do to salvage the brand.

EDIT: mladenkovch did a good job of summarizing what I find to be the inkling of a lack of humility in the project description: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5027929.

[3pt14159]

Don't be embarrassed of those posts. It is what we all think about so many shitty websites every single fucking day. Although I will say that blackatlas.com has turned out better than expected.

[jspthrowaway2]

As I told pg, my opinion of you impacts Svbtle so minutely that it might as well not even exist. But, it is still my opinion of you.

Let's be honest, Dustin, that article was from 2009. It wasn't exactly written in the '80s when you were on a coke binge. I think your attitude in a lot of blog posts reflects quite negatively on who you are as a person, and that's where a lot of the hate for you comes from.

You're presumptuous about our industry in a lot of ways without much to show in terms of accomplishment. Often I've asked, who is Dustin Curtis? Why is he telling me the important things about building a startup? The answers to these questions are thin, vague, or nonexistent. I'm glad you have opinion and I certainly don't resent yours, but I also don't position myself as a commentator on all things Silicon Valley without having actually done anything in Silicon Valley. This isn't a critique of you nearly as much as it is a critique of punditry, I think, since I haven't given it much thought; that said, it's still my reaction to most of your writing.

I don't hate you, as it were, nor do I seek every opportunity to piss on your brand, I just hold a quite-negative opinion and will share it if asked. Again, as I told pg above, I'm also willing to be proven wrong but you've simply made it worse since I developed it.

I genuinely feel bad for you (and I mean that), that you want to accomplish something but you have to deal with this crap when you do. If you're self-aware about why it happens, I can sympathize, as I've made grievous mistakes in my life that cost me some reputation as well. If you aren't, then you should figure out why it's happening.

[ry0ohki]

"Often I've asked, who is Dustin Curtis? Why is he telling me the important things about building a startup?"

As someone who is neither in the hater not fan category, this is what I've been trying to figure out. I have no clue who he is and it's very difficult to find out much besides he's an opinionated person with a taste for design.

[blader]

Why does it matter who he is? Why not consider the merits of the ideas in their own right rather than relying on the authority of the author? One would think folks on HN would be inclined to treat ideas in a more meritocratically way.