[gahahaha]

Surely you must understand that the current obesity epidemic CAN NOT be caused by people suddenly becoming more weak willed?

If you had been born in Japan you would almost certainly be thin now. Why? The answer is not that Japanese people have more will power.

[corin_]

I'm not saying that we have become more weak willed - i.e. that this is the reason people are fatter than 100 years ago - just that weak will does play a very big part.

Maybe if I was born a century ago I would be skinny and fit, but that doesn't change the fact that my current weight is caused by my own lack of will as well. Will power is the reason on an individual level, but not the reason behind the cultural trend.

[gahahaha]

Rereading my comment, I don't like my tone. Sorry about that.

I think we basically agree.

[corin_]

Meh, you were maybe a little strong but didn't cause any offense.

On a side note, is it not also possible for different cultures to have different levels of self-control? Within the areas of society that I know there definitely seems to be correlation between how kids are brought up and how much self-control they have, so surely on a greater scale it would indeed be possible for entire countries to have more or less than other countries? (Not talking weight related now, just thinking out-loud.)

[gahahaha]

I always like to think of self control the same way as free will. A useful abstraction, but not something that really exists. It is obviously beneficial for a person to believe that he is in control of his choices, of his behavior, because that increases the chance that he will take action to improve his lot. But that it is useful does not mean that it exists.

Has a child of christian parents who have never heard anything but religious music, books, stories, people had the opportunity to make a free choice? I don't think so. Has an American child who has seen thousands and thousands of ads for garbage food taken an independent choice to eat that? I don't think so.

We humans have precious limited mental resources and can’t afford to spend the time considering every decision rationally; therefore, we automatically subconsciously make decisions based on salient features of the current stimulus. In normal words, we make shortcuts based on limited information.

Since people are so very irrational (See Thinking fast and slow by Daniel Kahneman) the idea that we are rational can be used as an excuse by those (advertisers, politicians) who want to manipulate us. So, it is in fact a dangerous idea.

I sometimes entertain the notion that it would be better to live in a totalitarian dictatorship where some benevolent dictator manages the information people are exposed to and thus makes people make better choices of their own free will. (I'm aware that such a society has some dystopian aspects as well, of course)

[corin_]

It's a difficult concept to really define or understand. I'm just about to pop down to the shop to buy a pack of cigarettes, but equally I could make a decision right not to never smoke again. Environment no-doubt played a role in my becoming a smoker in the first place, but am I not exercising free will by choosing to buy them today? And if not, how can you hold any person responsible for any action?

[gahahaha]

If free will does not exist, then it is ultimately not anybody's fault if they do something. That includes murder and buying cigarettes. But at the same time it is easy to see that as a society it is advantageous for us to punish criminals because that punishment is part of the environment that influences behavior for criminals and non-criminals in a positive direction.

So - nobody is responsible for any action, but it is useful to pretend they are.

Another reason why the concept of free will is so ingrained in western culture is the role it plays in religion - being saved/forever damned makes no sense without it. But like much of religion it is just an untruth that has (at least historically) proved useful for people. Since religion is so important to many people, they will also hold on to the idea of free will because understanding reality in a more accurate way wil undermine their religion.