Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by eli_gottlieb 4921 days ago
This has got to be one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever seen. Its only real point is that commodity-based currencies and deflations weaken government.

Furthermore, its idiotic praise of societal-level saving is pure nonsense. My income is someone else's expenditure, my credit is someone else's debt. Money can obscure this fact, not alter it. In order for me to save, someone else must spend.

Do they have to spend beyond their means and go into debt or reduce their own savings for me to save? Well, that's where the issue of money comes in.

If we have a standard-issue modern currency, ie: slow but steady rate of inflation targeted by a central bank, then some amount of new money enters the economy each year. As long as total new savings in the year don't exceed this amount, then and only then can everyone save at the same time.

In a gold-backed inherently-deflationary currency without fractional reserve banking or government fiat to create inflation.... all savings is zero-sum. Such a currency is indeed inherently deflationary, and the deflation spirals as those who can actually afford to save come to own larger and larger portions of the total bullion supply -- which they are of course saving!

You end up with only one way to put aggregate demand back into the system: credit. Which is exactly what has happened to our real societies in the past three decades of anti-inflationary, anti-labor public policies! Problem is, that makes the deflation truly become a crisis, because even a 2% annual deflation is in fact an extra 2% interest compounding on any and all nominal debts.

Deflation is bad for the same reason inflation is bad, namely that an unexpected change in currency value alters the real terms of almost all business contracts ex post facto. But deflation is also distinctly bad for another reason: once it kicks in, there is no incentive for net creditors/savers to engage in any real production of anything. Their biggest incentive becomes the generation and continuation of nominal debts (whose real value accumulates a deflation bonus). Worse, as the deflation happens and alters contracts ex-post-facto, people's debts become unpayable. So now the creditors go bankrupt too, and the only people left safe are the savers who literally stored physical bullion in a physical location. Anyone with so much as a bank account finds out they were actually a creditor, and are now completely fucked.

Deflation is a wet dream of survivalist "gold, beans, and ammo" nutters, and the world's worst preventable nightmare for everyone else!

4 comments

> This has got to be one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever seen.

It's pretty dumb. Really, thoroughly dumb. But you've added some real bloopers of your own:

> If we have a standard-issue modern currency, ie: slow but steady rate of inflation targeted by a central bank, then some amount of new money enters the economy each year. As long as total new savings in the year don't exceed this amount, then and only then can everyone save at the same time.

This is not true. Not even close. First, you are conflating two different concepts: (a) an increase in the money supply and (b) inflation. Inflation is often the result of an increase in the money supply, but that's not what it is: inflation is an increase in how much stuff costs. That is, it's a general increase in prices.

And prices can move broadly in one direction or another for many reasons other than a change in the supply of money; the price-level depends also on how fast money circulates, on the level of supply and demand for goods and services, and on all sorts of related factors.

Second, the possibility of saving does not depend on an increase in the supply of money. Doubtless you are thinking of saving in accounting terms: to save means to have more money later than you have now, so in aggregate that must mean that there needs to be more money in the economy tomorrow than there is today.

No. Saving is one side of the saving-investment process, which is about doing useful work and creating new things. That work and those things are abstractly called wealth and have value; wealth and value can be denominated in money, and people use money to facilitate the transfer of different sorts of wealth. But wealth is not money, and saving is about accumulating wealth, not money.

You're absolutely correct that if saving were merely about financial wealth, about increasing one's "value on paper", then we would need more money to gain wealth as a society. But it's not, and we don't need more money to accumulate wealth as a society precisely because it's not the money we value, but the things and the results of useful work. And so people trade their money for new things and results, and we can grow wealthier without increasing the money supply.

> In a gold-backed inherently-deflationary currency without fractional reserve banking or government fiat to create inflation.... all savings is zero-sum.

On the savings part, see above. On the part of about a gold-backed currency, or really any commodity currency, here's the thing: they're not inherently deflationary, or even fixed in supply. It's just that growth of the money supply is tied to things like improvements in mining technology or the results of prospecting. What I find really funny when I hear Ron Paul or somebody advocate a return to the gold standard and the abolition of the Federal Reserve is that they're really arguing for handing over monetary policy to the mining industry!

> Deflation is bad for the same reason inflation is bad, namely that an unexpected change in currency value alters the real terms of almost all business contracts ex post facto.

Yes, right. (Though it's really uncertainty about changes in the price level that inhibit useful economic activity. Change itself is not bad, but its unpredictability is.)

> ... But deflation is also distinctly bad for another reason: once it kicks in, there is no incentive for net creditors/savers to engage in any real production of anything.

There is less incentive, not none. Deflation represents a real income stream (that is, a constant potential accumulation of goods and services), but just as you might choose to work more (or harder) to increase your income, so you might during a deflationary period.

> What I find really funny when I hear Ron Paul or somebody advocate a return to the gold standard and the abolition of the Federal Reserve is that they're really arguing for handing over monetary policy to the mining industry!

Not really, mining industry still can produce only fixed amount of gold, while central bankers can potentially print infinite amount of paper money.

(I'm not advocate of gold standard)

+1...

And seen that unlimited QEs have been announced one can only conclude that our current system is deeply broken.

The probability that it ends up in a really ugly way is far from zero.

I could tell that I'd take the "gold-backed, 5% inflation per year max no matter what" anytime over the unlimited QEs we have now.

We're sitting on a time bomb and it has the potential to change the western world as we know it.

I did make the awfully common mistake of conflating money supply and price inflation/deflation. My bad.

However, my point about savings stands, because I was talking about money, not wealth. The whole point is that money is an economic lubricant, and if an economy goes into a deflationary spiral or debt-driven financial crisis, the whole problem is that real wealth ceases to be represented accurately by money, yet almost all transactions continue to be denominated in money. The map ceases to represent the terrain.

Up voted.

Would add that in a deflationary environment no one will want credit so really you have to print money and give it away (or just print it and spend it).

But what about free currency competition? Allow all kind of currencies co-exist. Those who want inflation can use the inflatable currencies, the people demanding deflation can use more deflationary currencies.
Of course everyone wants to borrow and spend inflating currencies and earn and save deflating currencies and it just adds another issue to negotiate in every deal.

I don't see any major harm but I don't see any benefit either. In fact you can currently choose from many global currencies now including the Yen that has deflated over the past decades.

> it just adds another issue to negotiate in every deal.

Not really. We have this thing called technology, which allows people to automate things. And it is very much possible to automate almost everything related to currencies and payments.

If merchant wants to hold currency A, but can gain customers from currencies B, C, D, F, he can just implement some payment processor which does all the legwork for him with 1% fee.

> I don't see any major harm but I don't see any benefit either.

It is pretty difficult to see benefit why someone would want to use for example dollars compared to euros. It is mostly where you happen to live and to what currency you are used to. But I would bet my ass that people would after all like to decide themselves what currency to use, instead of someone else to force them to use specific currency (however still most people would probably just use the currency they are used to).

For instant one off transactions it is simple. For delayed (when order is delivered) or repeated/recurring (salary, installments, ongoing fees) to cancel the currency risk you need to also have futures or options and deal with counterparty risks and have the reverse risk if the order is cancelled and you still have the matching future.

It gets really complicated quickly and for most people best just to get the one most aligned with their costs/spending and then they can enter currency speculation if they want to.

There can not really be competition between currencies, since the major advantage of a currency is that everyone uses it. ( Compare the situation to a situation where some people offer meat for arrowheads and other berries for bone knives. )

And besides, sellers will want to use deflationary currencies, because then they raise prices without changing the nominal price. Therefore no one would be able to use a inflationary currency.

> There can not really be competition between currencies, since the major advantage of a currency is that everyone uses it.

There already exists global competition between fiat currencies... The competition exists but the competition has bery high barrier to entry.

> And besides, sellers will want to use deflationary currencies, because then they raise prices without changing the nominal price. Therefore no one would be able to use a inflationary currency.

Nope, seller doesn't care if the conversion process is painless. Almost all sellers on the internet accept any currencies - for example, US sellers accept euros without knowing that they accept euros. Payment processors do the conversion.

In the end, the thing that matters is what kind of currency each participant wants to hold. If the buyer wants to hold currency A and seller currency B, they both can still do trade, if there exist somewhat efficient market between currency A and B. And there probably exists, currency markets are probably the first thing to evolve for any kind of usable currency.

This is roughly the scenario under which Gresham's Law was discovered. Long story short: the inflationary currency wins.
Or you'll have to allow some form of fiat currency as an alternative currency. Or you'll have to more-or-less allow the entire real economy to collapse as the exponentially dropping remnants of actual aggregate demand become utterly unable to facilitate, or rather justify, real trade.

One last point: deflation always favors whoever, in a transaction, is the creditor/seller. In a certain sense, this is not only economically harmful but morally unfair. After all, if I pay a contractor $150k to build me a house (assume I own the land and we're only paying for construction), what I'm really doing, underneath the illusion of money, is trading my skills and property (program code, raw building materials) for his skills and property (architecture, construction, use of his materials and tools). In theory, this can and should be modeled as a spot-trade of my stuff for his stuff with no unwanted side-effects.

But once we get money and its time-value (deeply affected by deflation) involved, then one of us has an automatic advantage over the other based on the currency value when the work is done and when the payment is made. If the currency is deflating, even predictably, then whoever gets paid has an automatic advantage over whoever does the paying. An arbitrage opportunity across time has appeared solely because we involved currency.

>If the currency is deflating, even predictably, then whoever gets paid has an automatic advantage over whoever does the paying.

If the value of the currency is changing predictably and the date of the future payments is known then it can be taken into account in determining the amount of the payments. However, the purchaser does benefit if the seller doesn't know enough to account for it or is timid and fails to assert the demand, etc.

And who will survive if nobody produces anything for anybody to consume or horde? Imagine that the farmers of the world decided not to produce anything for us to eat and instead only horde stuff.
People would spend for food but save as much money as possible making the economy contract with demand in a depression. Hopefully the government would turn on the printing presses and step in as spender of last resort before the food ran out.
People probably wouldn't do anything else than just buy that food, and wait for the world to end? LOL
Oversimplified. This is an HN comment not a Economics paper. Discretionary spending reduced, borrowing falling leads to deflationary cycle with shrinking economy unless action is taken.

I thought it would be obvious I didn't mean absolutely all spending will stop.

"Deflation is a wet dream of survivalist "gold..."

Say what!? Gold's price goes down too if there's deflation.

Someone holding on gold hopes there's inflation, not deflation.

Deflation is the dream of people who hoarded truckloads of bills, not gold.

"My income is someone else's expenditure, my credit is someone else's debt. Money can obscure this fact, not alter it. In order for me to save, someone else must spend."

OK, so I produce 100 tons of lithium-ion in my backyard. I just created wealth. There's supposed to be money created corresponding to that wealth created. How does this money correspond to someone else's debt? Isn't money supposed to correspond to wealth and new wealth to be constantly created? You make it sound like it's a zero-sum game in the non-gold backed scenario too...