[no_more_death]

Thank you for a thoughtful and probing post. It is bold to write on a spiritual topic to this audience. I don't usually talk at length about spiritual matters, but everyone else here seems to be doing so and so I think it's appropriate.

I would like to talk about one idea you brought up: the idea that the Christian Gospel involves some sort of coercion. In particular, the little story you told about God vs. the devil.

This is what the gospel says. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in him would not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

We're sinking in quicksand. God reached out His hand to save us. But if we refuse, we will die. Does that make God a monster?

Indeed, if you refuse God's love, the consequences are not good. If you refuse my offer of a kidney transplant to you, the consequences are not good. Does that mean I'm raping you by offering to save your life?

Please do not blame God that there are people in hell. God doesn't use hell as an instrument of coercion. We sink into hell under the weight of our own evil. We put ourselves there. We wouldn't be happy in heaven, if we don't like God's rules here on earth.

But God loved us even though we could not repay him in the least. He is rich in mercy. God gave the world an unspeakably wonderful gift that we can never, ever repay. Jesus Christ took my hell upon himself. He took all the punishment I deserved on Himself. How can I repay that? That's the essence of unconditional love. And He offers this gift to you.

Christ is my brother, my friend. He died for me. He forgives my sins against Him and helps me every day with my pride and my bent toward sin. Do you realize this is not a game? He has seen what you wrote -- don't you think it hurts Him?

I'm genuinely confused why you insert such strong language in a thoughtful post about loving life and valuing the right things. If you disagree with the Gospel, feel free to say so. But why do you want to vilify the God I love, call Him "the devil," call Him a rapist? He is grieved by these remarks. I am grieved as well.

I will pray for you. You seem to be lashing out at God with the grief and difficulty you have experienced. That's an awful place to be in. I know from personal experience that my words are not able to help you, but God is able to help you. I hope that some day, you believe in Christ and come to understand that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. No one can go to God the Father except through Him.

[brazzy]

You have a strange definition of the word "unconditional". And of course all that doctrine contradicts itself in a lot of ways.

> God doesn't use hell as an instrument of coercion.

Oh yes, he very much does. The Christian god as portrayed in scripture is the worst imaginable kind of needy psychopath.

> We sink into hell under the weight of our own evil. We put ourselves there.

No we don't. Christian doctrine invented the concept of original sin to ensure that.

> But why do you want to vilify the God I love, call Him "the devil," call Him a rapist?

Because his followers insist that he acts like one.

[bostonOU]

Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

In the Romans verse, it explains that God has shown His love for everyone. He did it without expectations for something in return. He did it for people who couldn't repay Him. He did it for people that were His enemies. This is by definition unconditional and there isn't a single verse in the Bible that contradicts this.

Matthew 23:37 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

The Matthew verse shows that this love must be accepted. Jesus says that He wants to show His love in a close relationship, but the expressions of His love are rejected.

That Matthew verse also points to something that is often overlooked/misunderstood about hell. The worst thing about hell is not fire, darkness, demons, etc. The worst and most significant thing about hell is being separated from God. Heaven is where people have reciprocated God's love and experience complete intimacy with Him. Hell is where people have rejected God and experience complete separation from Him. With that understanding, it shows that it makes no sense to say "God sent someone to hell." Hell is the choice of someone that has rejected God's love. God, not being a rapist, does not force anyone to love Him.

[nollidge]

> Christ died for us

This statement does not compute.

[Crake]

>God, not being a rapist, does not force anyone to love Him.

Does anyone else find this quote hilarious? It's like saying "John, not being a rapist, does not force anyone to have sex with him" when the guy's presently in a backalley with his pants down and a knife at some chick's throat. He's not forcing the matter--he'll just kill them if they don't comply. That's clearly still a choice!

(Perhaps this is also why there are never any "legitimate" rapes??)

[Tichy]

I must admit, I am impressed by the sophistication of your argument. Still, not being well versed in Christian mythology, I have lots of questions.

For example, isn't god supposed to be all powerful, so that he created everything, including the devil, hell, and death? Would it cost him anything to simply make you not die - contrary to a human giving a kidney to another human, which indeed would be a high price to pay. Hasn't god, in fact, also created kidney disease? And what is the sins you are talking about? It sounds to me as if there are conditions for being granted eternal life after all, which practically amounts to coercion again.

Anyway, I really just felled compelled to reply because I thought your reasoning was not all that bad (for a religiously deluded person - sorry :-). I am willing to believe that at least you mean well.

[euroclydon]

Did God invent Kidney cancer and if so why? I think God has given us an environment to live in which life is precious and meaningful. The irony is that in Christianity we are promised eternal life, where all bad will be undone.

Right now what we have is free will, without a seatbelt. When an average person become angry or jealous, they may hurt someone, but usually not too badly, but when a mentally ill person becomes angry or jealous, the sickness in their brain may leave their violence unchecked, as in Sandy Fork.

Solzhenitsyn said, after years on observing mans depravity, that the line separating good and evil run through the heart of every person. We're all in a way guilty of the same sin.

[flyinRyan]

This has been argued and discussed endlessly throughout the centuries, but the answer to your questions are: free will. For example, God didn't make "the devil", he made an angel who chose to go against God.

The "Eternal life" thing sounds like coercion when you think of it as "do this or you'll be tortured in hell" but the point is God lets you chose to be with him or to not be with him. If God is everything that is good, then there's not going to be a way to make a place that does not have him and yet is pleasant to be, right?

[Crake]

Yeah, this is about when you run into that whole "how can you have free will if god is supposed to be omnipotent" problem that's been dogging various religions for centuries...

[flyinRyan]

Actually, philosophy passed that bit quite some time ago. Being omnipotent is not a problem for free will.

[Crake]

I can see why some people would want to think that. Humans are amazing at rationalizing their irrational emotional responses.

[username3]

The world was created perfect, but there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil, so people didn't know about good and evil, but they ate of it for some reason. They then had knowledge of good and evil. We're all experiencing what good and evil is.

Was it possible to just learn good and evil in a perfect world without all the death?

[debacle]

If there is a hell, then God's love is not unconditional.

[melc]

Thank you Paul for sharing! no_more_death i share your beliefs and i think you answer to yourself. Christianity does not encourage coercion at all, after all as you mention only states the consequences of actions that people might take.