[DarkNova6]

I totally get that. Java is my favorite language for exactly that reason. They are a deliberate "late mover language" and adopt what other languages have proven right.

But looking at how adamant Go used to be on the whole "No Generics" stance and the path and the troubles they are having... it all seemes so preventable?

[farfatched]

I think it was.

Go without generics was ok. I say that as a fan of generics in other languages.

There is room for languages with simpler feature sets.

It takes a strong leader (and the good and bad that comes with that) to continue to deny features. Go had that. Does it still? (I genuinely don't know.)

I'm not sure what Go's value proposition is now.

Developers can't pick it up in a week, as it used to be. Maybe that's okay too, since Go already has critical mass.

[ako]

Go value proposition for me, when developing with Claude code: 1) fast compilation times, faster iterations, 2) user friendly to install, one single binary per platform, 3) feels safer than JavaScript/typescript, which have too many npm vulnerabilities. Go comes with more functionality included, less need to use 3rd party libraries.

[farfatched]

That's fair. In addition, I'd add the great compatibility guarantees, and a community that makes easy-to-learn libraries.

[hwc]

> Developers can't pick it up in a week...

I don't think any of the new additions to the library have seriously made the learning curve more difficult. I suspect that most projects don't use templates at all.

There have always been parts of the standard library I'm not familiar with. when I read code that uses it, I just go read the documentation. Now the standard library is just larger.

[kamma4434]

> Go without generics was ok. I say that as a fan of generics in other languages.

Well kinda. I found it very annoying every time you want to print a sorted map which keys are strings that you could not abstract the operation. It felt like paying a stupidity tax. (And I quite like go. It’s the only language where write once run everywhere actually works. Cross compiling for all targets is as easy as creating a local binary)

[LVB]

I don’t feel like the learning curve has shifted dramatically for mainstream development. Besides generics—which tend to not show up that often in app code even now—I can’t think of any substantial language change since I Iearned it in 2014. (Well, modules, but that’s more tooling.) Where I do see the shock is jumping to def of a std lib function and landing in indecipherable type soup.

[shikck200]

Go never was "no generics". It had generics rusted in from the get-go, but never implemented them as it was a complex feature and one that made the compiler slower. Im glad they waited. Compare to PHP, where every feature is bolted on and then you end up supporting it forever.

[TZubiri]

A very common trap I find myself falling into is forgetting that there's a difference between the language, and the most common compiler/interpreter implementation.

It's a very practical simplification since 99% of the time, that's what we use. 'It's in the language, we just don't use it' does sound like copeful technicality, until it isn't and it's an actually impactful difference.

[win311fwg]

Does it? It was only preventable by not releasing Go, which isn't exactly the greatest of solutions.

As you know from when Go was first broadcast to the world, they hadn't figured out how to make generics fit[1]. It is not like they weren't trying. Ian Lance Taylor is regarded for beginning work on generics before anyone outside of Google had even heard of Go. "In short: not yet"

What was surprising is that after Go was released as an open source project, nobody across the whole wide world ever came up with a workable solution. You can sense the optimism in that original announcement that later turned to "Go might never get generics" dispair. As you'll recall, it finally took convincing Philip Wadler (of Haskell and Java generics fame) to help. Without that lucky break, which almost certainly never would have happened if Go was still some basement project used by nobody, Go probably still wouldn't have generics.

[1] https://youtu.be/rKnDgT73v8s?t=3267

[pjmlp]

More like no one on the world was able to change their mind, and then they had to ask help to someone that could already have provided help before Go released 1.0 version.

"They are likely the two most difficult parts of any design for parametric polymorphism. In retrospect, we were biased too much by experience with C++ without concepts and Java generics. We would have been well-served to spend more time with CLU and C++ concepts earlier."

https://go.googlesource.com/proposal/+/master/design/go2draf...

[win311fwg]

Quite right. If the Go team somehow magically had the right technical background Go would have had generics earlier, but they didn't and weren't going to magically get it, so we're back to the only preventable way was to not release it at all.

But one would think that of the billions of people in the world that someone outside of the Go team would have had that familiarity to quickly change that, but no proposals came from that direction for over a decade and a lot of begging. I suppose those who had the chops were too busy constantly posting on HN about how Go doesn't have generics to lend their expertise. Priorities.

It's great to reflect back in hindsight about where you failed, but it's always easy to see where you failed after someone else finally shows you the way. The simple fact that the Go team did not have the technical capability to be able to add generics at the time remains. Being able to create a relatively popular programming language (or set of popular programming languages for some of them) certainly does not imply that you are a programming language expert. There may even be an inverse correlation. Those who show to be programming language gods appear most likely to end up creating esoteric languages that end up on the pile of languages that remain unknown and unused.

[pjmlp]

Go is basically a mix between Oberon-2 and Limbo, which we all know where they landed on the adoption curve.

Without the adoption success of Docker and Kubernetes adding wind to Go's sails, Go would have landed on the island.

They were not lacking in skills, rather politics, and there is a public talk from Rob Pike where he mentions even the Go 1.18 generics would not have landed if it was for him.

[win311fwg]

> Go is basically a mix between Oberon-2 and Limbo, which we all know where they landed on the adoption curve.

Exactly. You might say that Wirth, Mössenböck, and Winterbottom had some programming language chops, bringing some new ideas to the world, which is in line with the observation that those with programming language skills end up creating languages nobody uses. In fairness, Pike was involved in Limbo, but his only claim to fame was pressuring Winterbottom to add garbage collection to Alef, thus Limbo.

> Without the adoption success of Docker and Kubernetes adding wind to Go's sails, Go would have landed on the island.

Fun story, but no. Those projects chose Go because Go had already gained traction and was thought, in that moment in time, that it was going to be the way of the future.

It is true that Docker is often credited as the first major success story, but Hugo, etcd, InfluxDB, etc. were all released around the same time, never mind the long list of projects that never gained popularity. The language was already being widely used by the time Docker showed up. Go didn't need a major success story to get on the radar. It had Google's marketing power behind it, or at least that's why most believe it was able to become popular without having any breakouts to its name.

> They were not lacking in skills, rather politics

These are not separable concepts. Politics are the result of lack of skill.

[pjmlp]

Really wearing the team's t-shirt there, Go was barely proven on the language adoption battlefield when Go heads preverted the direction Docker and Kubernetes were going, it wasn't even 1.0.

Lots of languages are full of dead projects that never gained notoriety.

In fact, YouTube downloader which is another "success" only happened, because once again, it was a gopher that forced a RIG, it was working perfectly fine.

[typical182]

> it finally took convincing Philip Wadler (of Haskell and Java generics fame) to help. Without that lucky break [...] Go probably still wouldn't have generics.

Small correction, I think:

My understanding is the core Go team was already well on its way to doing generics before Philip Wadler became involved, though he and his colleagues were later very helpful.

From Wadler's "Featherweight Go" paper [1] (the first draft of which seems to have been uploaded to arxiv.org circa May 2020):

Recently, the Go team mooted a design to extend Go with generics [Taylor and Griesemer 2019], and Rob Pike wrote Wadler to ask: Would you be interested in helping us get polymorphism right [...]

and:

It took us several tries over many months to formalise it correctly.

Well before that, doing generics was one of the main focuses in the GopherCon keynotes/announcements in 2017 and 2018 by Russ Cox [2].

The August 2018 generics design [3][4] was very detailed, and my recollection is most people in the Go community at that point believed the core Go team was going to make generics happen, even if the team and community were still iterating on the exact design.

Of course, that design improved over time, including thanks to Wadler and crew, but I think it would be overstating things to say that probably nothing would have happened without Wadler.

[1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/2005.11710v1

[2] https://go.dev/blog/go2draft

[3] https://go.googlesource.com/proposal/+/master/design/go2draf...

[4] https://go.googlesource.com/proposal/+/master/design/go2draf...