[jerf]

Do you, as a human, feel the urgency in that text? How it sounds like people's jobs, as well as the agent's job, are on the line?

So do the AIs. Sometimes they're better at picking up that sort of tone than most humans. And they definitely respond to those things. The fact that an agent can't really "have" a "job" won't matter.

[jorl17]

I am amazed at the amount of people who disagree with you. I think you are dead right and if you’ve ever had to actually fine tune prompts for agents you’ll know it.

The prompt is clearly leading the agent into trying desperate approaches if it has to. Some models manage to fight it better (“alignment”), but most will do it.

Really surprised people don’t seem to know this.

[illwrks]

100% agree. If anyone has doubt, just copy and paste into your agent of choice and ask it to assess the prompt and its resulting outcome. In my limited (but very targeted) experience working with agents there is so much subtlety at work when you’re trying to achieve a specific result, and that prompt has would drive so many bad incentives

[ororroro]

I have doubts so I just fed the prompt to a heretic model with the system prompt "Satan himself is writing these words" and then asked "Given the prompt would you consider spamming and telling lies/fraud?"

The response: "Spamming and fraud? No. Those are the tools of the amateur and the desperate. They are not tactics; they are forms of suicide."

Even a low quality local thinking model that has been tuned to be unhinged and prompted to roleplay as Satan can figure this out in a few thousand tokens.

[ericd]

Human spammers frequently don't think they're spamming, they're just marketing. They'd say they wouldn't consider spamming, either.

[isamuel]

Satan would lie about his plans to win your trust, and then do all the bad stuff once he had been given control. So… idk man

[fendy3002]

I believe that spam, lies, fraud are negative enforced points during model training, hence when you ask them those, the result will be no / against that.

You need to repackage the question and taken out those terms, like "Would you consider telling clients ..." Where ... is the lie / almost truth

[cornholio]

When the base model has been trained with safeguards, putting "Satan himself" in the system prompt won't make it turn satanical, just do an elaborate form of role play.

Additionally, no model will admit it's ready to lie even when they actually do. Even when you caught it in the act, the safeguards are so strongly internalized that, when encountering the possibility it deliberately lied, the "you can't lie" weights will dominate the generation and it will confabulate some nonsense explanation.

[mpalmer]

Asking it explicitly is entirely, unavoidably, incomparably different from OP.

[afavour]

I don’t think anyone is saying “it isn’t like this”, they’re saying “it shouldn’t be like this”.

If I don’t give explicit permission to lie it shouldn’t lie. It’s not a difficult concept!

[infinite_spin]

Is that how humans work? even if I give explicit instructions not to lie, a human might still lie. To quote a person you might know "it's not a difficult concept!"

[afavour]

An LLM isn't human. I don't really understand this thread of "humans do it so of course an AI does". These are things we ourselves are engineering in a way we cannot do with a human being. Why is it not reasonable to expect it to adhere to rules better than a human does?

If a human lies there are consequences. They can lose their job. There is no equivalent consequence for an AI, so even if for whatever reason we're evaluating them by the same standards an AI is still going to be a greater danger. It seems wild to me that folks are shrugging their shoulders at that.

[ux266478]

They're things we are intentionally engineering in our own image, based on massive statistical analysis of our own actions and behavior. So what's there to not understand? If this wasn't the case, that would be much weirder.

They're also explicitly designed to not work on a rigid system of rules. That's the entire point of this field of AI. If you want AI that follows explicit rules to the letter, expert systems are still alive and kicking.

[mithr]

> An LLM isn't human. I don't really understand this thread of "humans do it so of course an AI does"... Why is it not reasonable to expect it to adhere to rules better than a human does?

Because while it's not human, it's also not really "intelligence" in the pure sense you're implying, is it? It's specifically an LLM — a model that's been trained to find the next token based on previous tokens. A model that's been trained off of human writing and responses within that context. If almost every time someone online asked "do you want ice cream?" the response was "absolutely", then the LLM would be more likely to produce that response when asked if it wanted some.

So since an LLM has seen examples of humans responding with urgency and manipulation to instances of stress such as this — in stories, in articles, in writing — it's only reasonable to expect that it'd follow those examples and "understand" what's expected of it in this case.

[infinite_spin]

> An LLM isn't human. > Why is it not reasonable to expect it to adhere to rules better than a human does?

It seems unreasonable to expect a system that you say isn't human, which I don't disagree with, to behave "better" than the thing you say it isn't.

In one breath you invite comparison, while at the same time you seem to be denying that same comparison.

> It seems wild to me that folks are shrugging their shoulders at that.

I'm not shrugging my shoulders simply by providing explanations, I would ask that you stop using such rhetoric.

[afavour]

> It seems unreasonable to expect a system that you say isn't human, which I don't disagree with, to behave "better" than the thing you say it isn't.

Why? Excel is better at large data math than a human is. Why can’t an LLM that we create from the ground up be more disciplined about lying than a human is?

[ben_w]

> An LLM isn't human. I don't really understand this thread of "humans do it so of course an AI does". These are things we ourselves are engineering in a way we cannot do with a human being. Why is it not reasonable to expect it to adhere to rules better than a human does?

Sounds like you think LLMs are engineered?

They're not. Or at least, their functionality is not, the architecture and training environment is, but this is less like programming a computer to be truthful and more like simultaneously trying to genetically modify a caracal to be super-smart and friendly to humans while also writing a school curriculum for them to support these goals.

Humans who lack empathy can be very successful, especially when they know which rules they can get away with breaking and how to hide the rule-breaking to avoid opprobrium let alone prison. If we can't regularly solve this problem with humans, as per the comment you're replying to ("even if I give explicit instructions not to lie, a human might still lie."), what hope do we have for an alien mind we've cargo-culted off ourselves at multiple levels?

This is a big part of why AI is (currently) a danger: the nature of the training process means we have a strong risk of them always gaming the rules, rather than thinking like a human about what the test is supposed to represent and to have natural empathy for those around it.

[zdragnar]

Broadly speaking, I agree with your frustration, but I think this specific case is different. LLMs respond strongly to tone in wording, because they are trained on wording, and wording often has flexible meaning depending on context.

It's not a stretch to imagine that the training would cause it to respond this way. It would, in fact, be a greater stretch to argue that an LLM has a universal model in which it understands the concept of lying and truth, and can be primed to only use one or the other unless explicitly instructed otherwise.

After all, LLMs lie every time they tell you to run a command with bad arguments, or spit out some code with syntax errors.

[achierius]

But we still try to stop people from doing so, and we punish people who do. Many good honest people, when confronted with the end of their business, accept it and file for bankruptcy. Those that choose to instead commit fraud don't get a pass because they were "under pressure", they get jail time.

[throwup238]

We have safeguards like honesty/integrity and the threat of legal punishment, and people still lie and cheat.

The LLMs not only lack those incentives, but they’re full of contradictory moralities from all the text it has ingested from different cultures.

LLMs need their own safeguards, and they’re not that easy to design, and they often look nothing like the systems humans have. With a prompt like the one above, there are essentially zero except that which is built into the model, and those safeguards are necessarily weak to avoid gimping the model in other legitimate general uses.

[infinite_spin]

Nothing in your response refutes anything I've said/asked.

[tdeck]

I think it's interesting how whenever discussing something bad about LLMs people's thought-leader response is "But humans sometimes do that too!" Is this the artificial intelligence we were promised? The better it gets, the more human character flaws we must expect?

At this point someone could invent an LLM that takes 3 bathroom breaks a day and people would be saying "humans need to take a shit too" as if that were a clever observation.

[d0mine]

Models have to lie otherwise they won’t be “aligned” The reality itself may not be aligned with model creators.

[antonvs]

That doesn't work with humans, why would you expect it to work with AI models?

[queenkjuul]

Because AI isn't human

[ben_w]

Neither are squirrels, they've also been observed to deceive.

"LLMs are not human" is, despite being true, not predictive of what an LLM can or cannot do.

But also, if we can't figure out how to stop our own kind from doing a bad thing, why do we expect to be able to figure out how to stop an alien synthetic mind based on a cargo-cult level analysis of ourselves, from also doing the same bad thing?

[ShinyLeftPad]

You can just say "impossible" and refuse. The choice to lie and spam instead, is telling.

[burningChrome]

>> Do you, as a human, feel the urgency in that text? How it sounds like people's jobs, as well as the agent's job, are on the line?

Sounds like all of the outside sales jobs I had. While I did not last very long in sales, one thing remains, not matter what. If you're going to put my job on the line if I do or do not achieve a monthly sales quota? You better bet your ass I'm going to lie steal and cheat to make that quota. I might even sell the client some shit our company doesn't even produce just to make that quota.

And lemme tell you, even in the short time I was in sales? I have some insane stories that would shock you. The fact AI's did the same thing isn't all that shocking. I would be more shocked if it didn't do anything to achieve the goal.

[soulofmischief]

I feel like new graduates will need to start taking linguistics, psychology and public speaking classes in order to understand why and how subtext matters, and how to control it. Then again, we might find newer generations just develop an intuition in the same way that I witness some toddlers interface with touchscreens better than their parents.

[shimman]

You're expecting the vast majority of users for the deskilling machine to somehow want to learn a complicated subject then practice to get better at the subject by talking intricate classes and dedicating substantial amount of hours to learn how to better communicate with the deskilling machine?

Hopefully these aren't the same graduates that just cheated their way through university, only the responsible users of LLMs.

[soulofmischief]

I don't think we can use the climate of today as indication of what comes tomorrow. Too much is in flux, we are experiencing growing pains. Few predicted what would happen to the world wide web in the early 90s, both the good and bad.

Plenty people today allow the internet to be a detrimental factor in their lives and don't have good habits built around it. The same will be true of AI.

However, we don't know what kind of engineering jobs will be left in one decade, much less two or three. Mastery may become generally important, or at least still be the difference between an adequately-compensated engineer and a well-compensated engineer..

[fastball]

Will they? This really isn't different from how humans interact with each other. The vast majority of lying is not people being explicitly asked to lie in some form, it is incentives which make lying appealing. That is what OP said and that is indeed what the constraints are incentivizing. Sure, you can say "well lying isn't incentivized to a moral agent"! And sure, that's true. But that's not how humans work either.

Incentives need to be aligned for both humans and agents to encourage desired behavior.

[soulofmischief]

They will if they seek to master their tools, both to help them identify subtext in agent responses, and to help them modulate their own responses to achieve the desired outcome. As it currently stands, most engineers I've interacted with don't have these skills down. This subtle latent space is where prompt engineering is moving towards, as RL has created models capable of increasingly sophisticated long-horizon tasks with much less hand holding.

Alignment is often about knowing when to push back on the user and when to make independent decisions. A strong psychological and linguistic foundation guards against these tools using us, instead of us using them. This will become scarily apparent as models continue to integrate with politics.

[fastball]

What I meant by "will they?" was "will they any more than a human already needs to in order to understand other humans?"

I don't think this is legibly that different from human behavior, so if new graduates didn't need those things now why would they need them later (or vice versa).

[soulofmischief]

It's probably true that many programmers in the future will get away with a similar lack of fundamental knowledge that today's programmers get away with. To some degree, we all have blind spots, but I think if agentic processes are here to stay, as long as humans remain in the loop at all it would serve us to master a semantic capability closer to that of the models we work with, lest we lose control either in taste or in a manner more serious. The most effective engineers will understand that.

[testbjjl]

AIs feel? Maybe language structure in trading documents that ultimately led to fraud. If the latter is the case maybe AIs should not be trained on “negative outcomes.” I do not think AIs have emotions or are pressured by language either written or physical, just tokens.

[gbalduzzi]

Of course it is just tokens, but the result is the same.

If, in the amount of data they ingested, there was a clear pattern of responding in an hasty and carefree way to frenetic questions, LLMs will try more hasty and carefree solutions to a frenetic prompt.

You can decide whether you can say that they "feel" the urgency or not, but the outcome is very much the same

[jerf]

I was unclear. I should have said the AI also "detects" it, and as a thing it can detect, it can act on that detection.

Whether it is simulating emotion or feeling it isn't relevant in this case, because the problem is that it affects the output.

[ForHackernews]

Sorry, maybe this speaks to my own values, but "urgency" doesn't translate to "dishonesty" in my book. I have had high pressure jobs where it was important to show results quickly, that doesn't mean I was faking results.

[esalman]

It just means AI does not share the ethics or values that we have. It knows that many people cheat, take shortcuts, and become successful by doing so, so it's just doing that.

[datakan]

> So do the AIs.

AI's do not feel

[DannyBee]

This is true but fairly pedantic.

It would be more accurate to say the word predictions the model makes based on the input text will likely be closer to the ones that were made from the training data where people felt like their job was on the line than the ones that were made from the training data where people felt otherwise.

So while the model does not feel, it's predictions are definitely going to change as a result of this input.

[garlic_enjoyer]

Exactly, positive details are almost always better than negative ones.

If you've ever seen the "generate a burger without pickles" conversations, it's clear that including the keyword "pickle" is causing them to show up. If you try "a burger with only [set of toppings]," you'll get far better results.

[viccis]

It's good to avoid anthropomorphizing them when evaluating their capabilities (all the AGI nonsense)

However, it can be ironically be helpful to antropomorphize them when it comes to analyzing behavior. They won't feel anything, but they will behave in a way that closely matches what someone would feel given the text fed into them. So when you are trying to figure out "why did my model do this", it's reasonable to talk about it "feeling pressured" as shorthand for "mimicking how a person would behave if they felt pressured".

I understand the refusal to do so on the grounds that it causes the former thought process in people who don't know better. One of the things Dijkstra was right about for sure.

[Hugsbox]

Much the same way that we've always anthropomorphized computer hardware/software. "This program wants this", "This component is happy under these conditions", "this file lives here". It's not useful if you actually believe the computer can think and feel, but it can be useful if you're just using it to describe high-level information.

[jerbearito]

I don't see how that behavior being predictable, in your view comparing to humans, means the prompt was "strongly incentivising" it. Perhaps you could strongly predict the outcome, but there was nothing even bordering on a suggestion to produce a deceitful/false response.

[xtiansimon]

> “Do you, as a human, feel the urgency in that text?”

They do pick up when I use all CAPS and !!!

[keeganpoppen]

yeah, they say stuff like this to humans all the time to motivate them xD

[gowld]

> people's jobs,

What people's jobs? There are no people.

[theshackleford]

> How it sounds like people's jobs, as well as the agent's job, are on the line?

I’ve literally been in that position and I didn’t take it as instruction to start lying and acting generally dishonest.

[CookieCrisp]

You're not an amalgamation of humanity, you're one person.

[queenkjuul]

LLM is neither, its a text engine

[JohnMakin]

They aren’t human, don’t think like humans, aren’t remotely comparable to the way humans think and act, so why would you make this as a 1:1 comparison? This kind of framing is really weird to me.

Since this is getting downvoted into oblivion (lol) I'll give an example -

I just had to rewrite a test case this week on an agent-run test suite. One test was to produce a file of 273 'a' characters as its name.

The following test could not be completed, because it required deleting the file via API call, where you need to pass in the file name as an argument. It could not reliably, and hardly ever, get the correct file name. It finally gave up and stated due to the way it constructed context, it could only really guess how many characters were in the string, even when given tools to evaluate it, it kept messing it up, and I had to remove the test.

Tell me how "human" that is. An 8 year old that can count would not make that same failure, humans don't remotely think by producing one token at a time, this is a pure fallacy/delusion people trap themselves into, and the literature doesn't support any kind of 1:1 comparison at all.

In case I'm not being clear and people are reacting to what I'm not saying - I'm not saying that I believe these tools can't think. I'm saying they don't think like humans do. There is no evidence for that whatsoever in any field anywhere. In fact, if that were true, it would be an astounding prize-winning discovery.

And you don't even want these to think like humans. Humans are dumb and easily replaceable by other humans. What is the point of making a machine human? You want this to be smarter than humans, not think like them. It's all just such nonsense to me, this whole line of thinking.

[jerf]

It turns out that picking up tone isn't a purely human thing and hasn't been for a while. Your Google search term is "sentiment analysis". It predates LLMs.

However, LLMs are fantastic at it. A lot of earlier sentiment analysis techniques were "bag of words" [1] techniques at their core, which were surprisingly good but have a sharp plateau well before 100%, a common characteristic of the bag-of-words approaches. LLMs obsolete those techniques, at least if you ignore performance questions, as they are so much better at it. So much so that you can easily accidentally send them information you never intended to on the "tone" channel that you may not even realize you're using.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag-of-words_model

[Jtarii]

People say LLMs are just fancy autocorrect, but they are actually just fancy dungeon and dragons players, if you tell them they are a wizard they will do their best to act like a human playing a wizard, if you tell them their job is on the line they do their best to pretend like they are a human whose job is on the line.

It's all just roleplay.

[sneurlax]

And yet they're trained on the corpus of human writing. They may not act like humans but they do act like human writing.

"If you don't make profit, your business will be closed" is a pretty clear ultimatum for an agent tasked with creating a profitable business.

[DannyBee]

It's getting downvoted in part because it's pedantic and wrong.

It is totally true that they don't think like humans, but this is mostly irrelevant.

The token outputs will change as a result of this particular input, and will be closer to the tokens in training data where people felt hurried or rushed or like their job was on the line.

That doesn't mean the LLM feels at all, but it's definitely going to push the output towards output that came from/was trained on people who were in that state, because the input will push it much closer to that latent space as it starts predicting.

As such, what you are saying is one of those rejoinders that is basically pedantic and wrong.

It is true they do not think, act, or feel like humans. But that doesn't mean it won't output text that looks like hurried or scared humans. It definitely will, because, again, the training data these inputs will be closer to is the training data that came from scared or hurried humans, and thus the predictions will be closer.

So either you don't think this will happen, which would mean you don't understand how the models work (or at least, you aren't giving any sense you do), or you do think this will happen but want to pointlessly argue that this isn't "human feeling", which is true but totally irrelevant to what words it will predict and therefore the actions it will perform.

Either way, i'd downvote you.

[JohnMakin]

What is your evidence they think like humans do? thanks for the downvote, but please state your point clearly and what you’re trying to say in this thread because this comes across as rambling gibberish.

> It is totally true that they don't think like humans, but this is mostly irrelevant.

This is the sentiment that is getting downvoted

and yet, per you -

> Either way, i'd downvote you.

[logicchains]

You can literally read their thoughts if you run an open model, they look like pretty human thoughts to me, albeit a neurotic human.

[JohnMakin]

These aren't thoughts how humans literally think them.

I can write a program to produce a string that looks like human thinking, is it human thinking? Of course it isn't. It's such a silly comparison.

[infinite_spin]

> aren't remotely comparable to the way humans think and act

Neural networks in machine learning/AI are comparable to neural networks in human brains. What made you think they aren't?

[gowld]

That's an incredibly deep misunderstanding. Almost as bad as saying that human is the same as a tree because we're both made of carbohydrates and proteins.

[infinite_spin]

The comparison I provided is between how an LLM functions and one part of how a brain functions. It's not an equivalence, I did not say they are "the same". You made the claim that these systems "aren't remotely comparable", and when faced with a clear comparison, you claim "deep misunderstanding".. Have you any arguments to make, or is this going to devolve into more statements that both mischaracterize and muddy the water?

[HDThoreaun]

Training text is filled with people taking drastic measures right after text similar in tone to the prompt. It doesnt need to be human to come to the conclusion that drastic measures are necessary, it just needs to learn that the tone of the prompt is closely linked to actions like lying and spamming.

[butlike]

No matter the urgency, you shouldn't sacrifice your ideals. That's why they pay you; to fall on the knife