Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by SomeHacker44 2 days ago
Seems short sighted for an interim policy, to me. Why not just require clear and detailed disclosure of the use of said tools, to generate data for which to make a properly informed non interim decision?
6 comments

Because, as the FAQ section clearly states, the technical and management aspects are not the only ones. There are also legal issues, and until they are clarified or resolved it's best not to let code in that has the potential of causing problems later.

We're talking about one of the biggest and most critical open source projects in the world, and unless there's some immediate urgency, it's okay to wait before taking on some risk.

I should add that the potential loss here isn't big. For any fix, enhancement, or feature in the JDK, the cost of writing the code is rarely more than 10% of the total cost (which is easy to see if you compare the number of people involved in the project to the rate of code being added or changed), and the interim policy explicitly does allow the use of AI where it helps the most.

Oracle also has a vested interest in defending an expansive view of intellectual property rights. They lean very heavily on litigation as part of their business model and will want to reserve the right to sue anyone generating software that competes with theirs when the model may have been trained on anything they hold the copyright to.

If they held here that it is OK to use LLM generated code for OpenJDK it could kill these cases later as they will have established that they believe it is fair use.

All "interim" AI contributions to OpenJDK can and will be sued to make big money off of Oracle if those court cases don't go a certain way.

This is ironic given how Oracle has bet almost everything on AI succeeding.

Past everything. Even the CEO is leveraged up to his neck in personal debt at this point.
> short sighted for an interim policy

Bit of an oxymoron, no?

> just require clear and detailed disclosure of the use of said tools

Do you mean disclosure of the use of tools used "privately to help comprehend, debug, and review" contributions? Or do you mean that they should not prohibit AI-generated contributions?

If the former I wonder how useful the data would be, and if the latter, they are probably not (yet) willing to allow such contributions because of the mentioned risks: "to reviewer burden, to safety and security, and to intellectual property."

I suspect one of the principle reasons for the blanket decline is specifically that AI generated PRs are already responsible for a substantial uptick in the amount of work required to be done by maintainers. Engaging in discussions about those PRs may be more fulfilling and useful for the developer but it also then increases that work yet again manifold, so that would likely be highly counter-productive.

What I don't understand is: if you, for example, are a heavily AI-using dev, who spots a problem in OpenJDK, and you use Claude to figure it out: ok, why can't you then write the solution and PR yourself? Write your own code to replicate the functionality that Claude did, in your own style. Have Claude explain why this fixes the issue (it probably already did) and test it. If it works, write your own explanation and submit it as a PR.

I've done this a handful of times for smaller projects, in languages I'm unfamiliar with. Nobody complained because I didn't just copy the shit out of Claude, paste, copy the explanation, paste, and make a PR. I used Claude to increase my understanding, if even a bit and in a necessarily incomplete way, and did it myself.

You can, and indeed that's what we JDK developers do.

But even aside from the fact that writing the code is only a very small portion of the effort in this particular project (you can see that the volume of code making its way into the JDK is very small compared to the number of people involved), I'm often amazed by the gap between how well a frontier model (GPT 5.6 Sol in my case) can comprehend code and investigate a bug, and how badly it writes code and documentation, even when it understands things well. So not only is writing the code not a large portion of the effort in this project, it also happens to be one of the things current models don't do as well as other things.

> why can't you then write the solution and PR yourself?

You can. The policy explicitly allows you to use AI for understanding the codebase, debugging, etc. It just says “no AI generated content”. So if you use Claude to increase your understanding but then write your own code, that’s fine.

My actual question got a bit lost in my own reply. What I'm really driving at is: Why do people chafe against this?
It sounds like you did exactly what OpenJDK would have wanted you to do, be the human in the loop.
The interim policy you're proposing seems to have far different priors. The clearest indication of their stance is that they don't even want bug reports that have AI generate part of the text. You don't take a stand like that (imo) unless you've experienced some serious AI-related burnout.
The copyright issue is an important one. Under the current law, you don’t own copyright on the output of GenAI.