[altern8]

I couldn't find a lot of information, but abortion is a right in Italy.

Women seeking terminations in the first 90 days of pregnancy are protected under law 194.

From what I got, these organizations illegally sent women abortion pills.

At least when I was young and still living in Italy, you could walk into a hospital and they'd give you abortion pills or day after pills for free.

I guess it has to be a hospital/doctor and not a random website?

Not sure.

[gpderetta]

It is indeed legal, but gynaecologists can object to help for conscientious reasons (65% do) and in quite a few hospitals, 100% do object, especially in the south. So in practice access to it is not always that easy.

[lelanthran]

> So in practice access to it is not always that easy.

Understood, but the solution cannot be "allow prescription drugs to be sold online".

If access is not easy, there needs to be a different solution.

[gpderetta]

Agree about that. The question is whether all websites providing black-market potentially generous medications are being targeted or specifically just abortion pills. I genuinely do not know, this might be making the news but actually be part of a wide blockage.

[loup-vaillant]

> If access is not easy, there needs to be a different solution.

Indeed, access must be made easy. Abortion, through a pill or otherwise, should be accessible anywhere, freely, and any medical record should be kept absolutely secret, including from the family, especially if she’s underage.

I don’t think that’s the direction they’re headed though. I’m pretty sure in fact the whole point of allowing stuff like objection of conscience is to make abortion less accessible.

[lelanthran]

> Indeed, access must be made easy.

That is my point. If access is not easy, selling prescription drugs to anonymous buyers is not the solution - access must be made easy.

> I’m pretty sure in fact the whole point of allowing stuff like objection of conscience is to make abortion less accessible.

I don't think so. No one, whether a doctor or not, should be forced by the state to end the life of any being. That choice must be totally theirs to make, not the states.

I do not trust any state, government or ruler with the power to compel speech or action.

[dwaltrip]

> I do not trust any state, government or ruler with the power to compel speech or action.

This feels too broad. What modern government doesn't compel action?

[loup-vaillant]

> No one, whether a doctor or not, should be forced by the state to end the life of any being.

I feel you. But that right not to kill, conflicts with the autonomy of women. Which is more important?

> I do not trust any state, government or ruler with the power to compel speech or action.

France, and many other countries, makes it a crime (misdemeanour I think?) not to help people. If I see someone about to die, and I could prevent that, and I don’t, then I could go to jail.

This is textbook compelled action, and I fully condone it. If you don’t help someone from immediate danger you’re trash, and you should pay the consequences.

[lelanthran]

> I feel you. But that right not to kill, conflicts with the autonomy of women. Which is more important?

The right to not kill, obviously. What kind of question is this? You want to judge someone for not being (in their minds) a murderer instead of a controller-of-other-people?

> This is textbook compelled action, and I fully condone it. If you don’t help someone from immediate danger you’re trash, and you should pay the consequences.

Sure, but we aren't talking about immediate danger. All those countries you list don't compel you to help someone who is in no immediate danger.

[Fire-Dragon-DoL]

Wouldn't selling pills online effectively remove the dilemma? The doctors can avoid killing and the women are free to go through abortion

[ordu]

> If access is not easy, there needs to be a different solution.

The only way is to make access easy. If you make it hard, then demand for black market drugs will drive supply. Which in turn would drive a repressive machine. Sites blocked, people convicted and so on.

I don't know why anti-abortion activists are unable to understand it. The only working hypothesis they are actively resist any understanding. A dogmatic worldview can lead to such behavior.

[lelanthran]

> I don't know why anti-abortion activists are unable to understand it. The only working hypothesis they are actively resist any understanding. A dogmatic worldview can lead to such behavior.

The pro-lifers don't have a monopoly on stupid people - see above where a pro-choicer is arguing that abortion 1 day before delivery should be legal.

[ordu]

> The pro-lifers don't have a monopoly on stupid people

Tu quoque[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque_defense

[lelanthran]

You don't appear to know what that means :-/

There are two parties in this argument; you appear to belong to one party in this argument.

1. You propose that the other party in an argument are stupid people.

2. I point out that both parties are demonstrating an inability to reason.

3. You now claim that lack of reasoning from your party does not make the other party's argument stronger.

4. You completely missed my point that lack of reasoning from your party does not make your argument stronger.

Your link is frequently posted by people who have no wish to argue rationally. At this point, it's almost like an indicator for a troll :-/

[altern8]

Sure, but access is easy enough. Not worse than anything else than the government does.

Much better than--let's say--getting an MRI.

Looks like this thread has gotten the attention of weird activists that want to find injustice everywhere and jump to conclusion--as long as the conclusion is women oppressed and censored.

[altern8]

That's because they don't want to get sued.

So, you think the government should force doctors to perform abortions, like putting them in jail if they don't want to do it?

[gpderetta]

how's that different from any other medical procedure?

[lelanthran]

I don't think GP was making that argument (well, I didn't read it that way). He's just saying that access may not be easy.

[EDIT: I see GP did reply to parent, and he apparently was making that asinine argument :-/ Oh well, at least I interpreted original GP comment charitably]

[gpderetta]

of course doctors should not be forced, that's ridiculous, but the SSN should prioritise hiring non-objecting doctors, at least in areas where there isn't enough coverage (in the same way it should prioritise hiring other specialities as needed).

[lelanthran]

> of course doctors should not be forced, that's ridiculous, but the SSN should prioritise hiring non-objecting doctors, at least in areas where there isn't enough coverage (in the same way it should prioritise hiring other specialities as needed).

I agree, they should!

But what do you do if your society just does not have enough people (nevermind doctors) who share the beliefs of pro-choicers?

At the point where you cannot find enough people to carry out an order for one side of an issue, it's a signal that the society itself has already taken a stand on the issue.

[realo]

Jail? No.

Big fine? Of course.