[reactordev]

Your company, your coworkers, are not your friends. HR is not there for you, it's to protect the company from you. Do not disclose personal information to those who control your livelihood. Once you leave or if you build up a personal relationship with a coworker, outside of work, then maybe. Even still. I will never divulge what I have been through simply because corporate wants to be "inclusive".

[aljgz]

This is a recipe for a sad life. It's avoiding friendship for the fear of betrayal. You get a lot of benefits by being good friends with colleagues. There are, however important things to be aware of:

1- "Though shall not" limit their social life to their colleagues (or any single group that can disappear with a divorce, change of jobs, or hobby, maybe because of an incident).

2- "Though shall not" blindly help people with the hope of being helped in return. Help with generosity, but know the limits: don't sacrifice yourself, and certainly, don't count on people returning the favor as your main plan. It's incredible how much happier we can be just by helping people, if we fire and forget, rather than cling onto.

3- Do not define yourself with your job, your success in there, or with your colleagues' approvals. This is extremely hard, yet extremely important. Diversify what defines you. Be able to mentally afford being bad at some of them. Don't let any of them define who you are. This lets you act with true confidence (not insecurity disguised as overconfidence), which is extremely pleasant for yourself and others.

[alentred]

You seem to contradict yourself, or at least actually support the OP's point. If you don't define yourself with your job, but have other self-identities outside, there is nothing sad about having different takes to the amount of personal information shared in various circles.

Extending on that, I do not agree with "do not define yourself with your job". Why not? It's a big, if not biggest, part of almost everyone's life. What's bad is defining yourself with your job ALONE. Psychological safety comes from having multiple self-identities: be an engineer at work, a volunteer on weekends, amateur radio enthusiast on Thursdays nights, or whatever, and don't mix those!

[reactordev]

>”this is a recipe for a sad life”

No, this is a recipe for surviving corporate America. You can have and make friends but be cautious of coworkers that you work directly with. I’ve made friends outside of work. I’ve made friends at work but I do not expect to be friends with everyone I work with.

[wasmitnetzen]

>> a sad life

> corporate America

Sounds like you're saying the same thing.

[red-iron-pine]

"work friends aren't real friends, but they sometimes can be"

[kunley]

Disagree. It's just admitting that the company can and will be cynical when it comes to the conflict of interests between them and the employee.

Making friends at the workplace is fine until there is such conflict, then where will they stand? If they will turn they back on you (and most of them will), then how much is such relation worth in the first place?

[lkjdsklf]

It’s also sacrificing your career.

Professional networks are a massive important part of growing/building a career. This is especially true in an environment where there are mass layoffs constantly.

Building personal and trusting relationships is a huge part of developing that network.

This doesn’t mean you should turn every coworker into your therapist, but the other extreme is also bad for both your career and your person.

[aljgz]

How's that different from friends at your sports club? How does the risk of your workplace friends not taking your side balance against the benefit of the possibility that they will support you?

Should I give up years of joy and sense of community and belonging for the fear that someday my workplace friends will betray me? And then years more of suffering in my next workplace?

A strategy that minimizes risk rarely maximizes reward.

[reactordev]

The tragedy strikes when you associate your workplace with belonging because here, at-will employment means you never truly belong.

[kakacik]

You see things in binary mode, world is anything but that.

If I am not making friends at work, it doesn't simply equate to "sad life". Maybe it would for you, but then you can question why behaving so, work isn't and shouldn't be one's central piece of existence. Maybe you were never fired, or never saw firing for all the wrong reasons. Maybe you work so much its hard to have an actual life outside of work. At the end it doesn't matter, but folks do see things differently to you and its fine.

[ricksunny]

#2 I believe that there is at least one entire culture on the planet that comports itself this way, whose emergent macro outcomes can be debated.

[aljgz]

Interesting... Can you elaborate? I did not get the reference.

[_dark_matter_]

This is so sad. I have made amazing friends with my colleagues in the past. My days are made better when they can be funny, we can share moments, and we can support each other in hard times. Even remotely I have managed to stay in touch with them. It is a real friendship, built from a decade of learning just how this other person ticks.

Really hope I didn't have to ever give that up.

[reactordev]

You can make friends but don’t assume that they are simply because you share a common trauma of being cooped up in the same building.

I’ve made friends at work. I wouldn’t call them friend friends but I’ve made friends at work.

[joenot443]

I think if you consider your job a form of trauma then any judgements you have on it will be downstream of that.

[reactordev]

Everything is a form of trauma. Jobs are just notorious for it.

[crossroadsguy]

I was rejected in a hiring process because a co-worker worked there. They asked him for feedback in the final hiring decision. I was being considered for a senior staff role. The meeting room had two of my ex-co-workers. One was the person who had referred me and was my tech lead at a previous work place. This (feedback giver) co-worker (my peer; from yet another work place) told them all was great and hunky dory but "he is a work life balance kind of person". I was not hired. Also, my two co-workers there didn't know each other really and didn't know they both had worked with me in the past until that meeting. Company had connected those dots on LinkedIn.

[p1anecrazy]

Good riddance. A “work-life balance kind of person” is not a negative characteristic; even more so at a position where your behavior is an inspiration to many people

[crossroadsguy]

Well, I live in India. “Being available” and making others do the same is the national managerial obsession.

[ocschwar]

Which is why I am sitting right now in a meeting and the presenter is logged in from Bangalore and I don't even want to know what `TZ=Asia/Kolkata date` will tell me.

[tesnorindian]

People should reject this mentality and live their life.

[reactordev]

Their GDP would suffer.

[dust-jacket]

Yeah this person saved you.

They were asked if you'd fit in and they gave the most diplomatic, polite feedback that they knew would be be taken as a no. Their comment was a pretty clear admission that this was not a "work life balance kind of company".

[reactordev]

Once upon a time, when the tech talent pool was smaller, there was this really caustic individual I used to work with that loved to argue. They would never give praise or say something like "oh that's cool!" but would rather debate everything. A few years later, I'm now working at a different company and someone comes to me asking to help them review a resume. It was that individual. I was clear about what talent this individual brought but I also added my anecdote about their behavior at the previous company. I gave them room though to find out for themselves. During the interview with that individual, they asked a few questions that would elicit this kind of behavior and they did not disappoint. They did not get the job.

I treat everyone I work with with respect but I also don't go so far as to let them into the inner circle. I wish people could just respect people but I've seen too many office politics sessions to know better. I wished to make friends with some coworkers outside of work but it never amounted to much.

[ido]

Sounds like you dodged a bullet and the coworker did you a favor.

[anderber]

Exactly this. No matter how they dress it up, HR is there to protect the company, not you.

[s1artibartfast]

Genuine question. Can you tell me why people love saying this so much?

[xquce]

Because HR lies and say the opposite in the majority of companies. "Come to us with any problems, it's safe and anonymous, we are here to help you".

From personal experience I have reported gross treats by senior leadership to an HR rep who was shocked about hearing their HR employee evals being suppressed by only allowing score between 8-10 in a 1-10 score. The HR rep confirmed it personally that it was happening and a few months later appeared on the other side of the desk with the leadership as they fired me for budget reasons.

[kakacik]

This is corporate default. Don't stick your head too much, don't make too much noise, vent off someplace else ie via some cool sports. Doesn't matter how righteous, how correct and good for the company, it will very easily back fire you. Its kafquesque catch-22 all over the place, be a good boy and accept the paycheck with crap it comes along. Or move, but its not always greener on the next site.

[reactordev]

There are no more patches of green grass left.

[xquce]

Just to add a followup to my story. If you can't find it, find people and create it!

What I did was to build my own grass field(started company with my team) and it has been fucking great. We made a better product and made enough of a name of ourselves, that while I lost the battle that time with the former leadership, I fought long enough to see them all lose their jobs.

As a CEO myself now, I choose not to have an HR rep and try to do better for my people.

Also this is in EU so as a warning to others,like me then, who thought HR in the US could do this but not here.

[andrewaylett]

Even if the people working in HR genuinely want to do the right thing for the employees, and company policies support them doing that, interactions with HR are inherently adversarial.

The people within HR may be friendly, they've probably got friends :). It can be a very people-oriented role. But they are incapable of being your friend when you're interacting with them in their role as representative for the company.

I greatly appreciate my employer's HR folk, they're really lovely, very good at their jobs, and want to help. But if I have to have a formal meeting with them, I would definitely bring along my union rep.

[reactordev]

Entirely this. When you are interacting with HR, that person on the other side is trying to protect the company from whatever claims you are about to make.

[andrewaylett]

Any claims are irrelevant to the inherent adversarial nature of the role, which comes from the authority they wield.

Edit: which also means you're not wrong, if you've got claims that trigger damage control then HR are even less your friend.

[yifanl]

They have authority over you, therefore all interactions must be taken under that context.

[vdomi]

HR stands for Human Resources, as in how the company manages ones of its resources, the humans. Is this not obvious at all?

[s1artibartfast]

I agree. If it is so obvious, why do people like saying it?

Do they also go around repeating the sky is blue?

[iwontberude]

I have had multiple friends sexually harassed or had a coworker talk about sexual exploitation in front of them and when they went to HR, they were fired and the offending person not held responsible. This is very common. Never tell HR anything or go to them for help ever.

If you work for HR, please kindly ____ yourself.

[UncleMeat]

While this isn't necessarily true at the individual level, HR as an institution is this way. The first HR departments were developed to defuse feminist agitation against sexist workplace environments at Sears.

[mlrtime]

Work as a Manager in a large tech org and you will see very quickly how the company operates (HR / HRBP). The higher you go up the quicker you see that employees aren't looked at as people, but as numbers or dollars.

My first manager job I was very naive, I went to HR to get help with directs. It was a bad idea, it put me and my direct at risk... never again.

The sad truth is that the managers who actually care and want to solve problems for people (personal and technical) usually get the wrong end of the HR stick first.

[s1artibartfast]

I am a manager. I have those conversations regularly (its my job). I have had tough conversations about if we should burn out an entire team or not, likely losing them, so i get it.

My question was not about if it is true or not, but why people like saying it so much.

[9x39]

Nobody else bit, so I think it's a shared bitterness that unifies a naive group who challenged someone with real power through HR and lost.

Through multitudes of anecdotes, this group often apparently holds that conflict could be solved by going around someone, their supervisor, say, and invoking HR as if they had authority over the situation and would obviously correct the injustice. Having misplayed their hand, they end up feeling victimized through organizational discipline or firing and abandoned by the would-be savior HR. With the moral injury now upon them, they tell everyone this warning as if it were a great lie to be exposed.

Our bosses tend to be the primary relationship to manage in organizations. Just the way power works, and it mostly poses a problem when one party doesn't realize it and thinks relationships are optional.

[reactordev]

people say it often because people don't learn the lesson. The messaging is human centric and there to make it sound like they are there for you. They aren't.

[energy123]

The workplace is one of the best places to find your spouse. It's where you spend most of your time and where you're most likely to meet someone with similar interests to you in the same location. It's anti-human to treat the workplace as this clinical saferoom with no relationships.

[mfru]

Workplaces that are dictated by a boss or C-suite are anti-human as well, as they are dictatorial, not democratic.

[alpineman]

If I were so terrified I couldn't share anything personal at work, I would be happy to be fired as it sounds like a miserable place to work

[reactordev]

You can share all you want, and you will be judged for it.

[kibwen]

They're already being judged for it by their bosses and coworkers, they just don't realize it yet.

[alpineman]

Great. Honestly I couldn't care less. I'm not a robot. Every job after my first has been due to friendships formed (by being a human) in previous jobs.

[reactordev]

I heard this from older generations. Sadly this is no longer true as we all work remotely now.

[mancerayder]

In the US, it's an extremely dangerous place to look for a spouse. I've seen some ugly situations. Maybe it's better to look for a spouse when the job market favors employees - that way, when you need to leave after the breakup, you can find a new job.

Also, in IT there's not a very diverse group of people to search from. When it comes to women, the ratio of hetero men to hetero women is insanely not favorable.

[reactordev]

same advice as "work hard and you'll be rewarded" which is only true to a degree.

[kakacik]

While totally logical (there are many matching counterparts for most people, its just about being close enough for long enough regardless of place), its not always ideal.

I wouldn't want my wife to work on same team for example. Heck, even same company may be less than ideal, time off each other is usually for the better. Also, if breakup/divorce happens, workplace can easily become a place out of worst nightmare.

I prefer looking at hobbies/passions groups, people there match me way more than people at work, it that doesn't work out its easier to cut off only that group if needed. In my case it was climbing events I was organizing, and I ended up with wife that matches me on basically all important levels

[trismus]

Is this your life? Quit.

[reactordev]

You first

[s1artibartfast]

Sounds like a fate worse than getting fired.

Do people not know how to make friends and develop trust. The solution is the same judgment process any human should go through.

Only an idiot would automatically assume coworkers are friends.

Only an idiot would assume coworkers can't become friends.

[shimman]

Never been in an office where there wasn't some solidarity amongst workers and not the owners. I can't imagine how alienating it must be to work somewhere you feel you can't trust anyone except yourself, sounds like a self made hell.

At least you get paid I suppose.

[jamesfinlayson]

Yeah I agree. I'm still very careful who I trust but it doesn't hurt to try and build a network.

[tancop]

hr and corporate are always your enemies but coworkers can be friends. they are on the same level as you and dealing with the same problems. just be careful who you trust because some of them might turn out to be class traitors and make up some allegations to get you fired.

[reactordev]

coworkers are your competition for that promotion though, how do you reconcile being someone's friend when they are your enemy? This is how corporate america thinks. I don't but the vast majority of seniors I know are trying to get to principal and there's only so many slots.