[vrganj]

Look, US tech services can either follow our laws our they can get the fuck out of our market.

The way people treat them breaking our laws as their god given right and then frame our fine as anything but their own fault is starting to really annoy me.

Respect our sovereignty, follow our laws. Or don't, but then don't be surprised that breaking the law is punished.

Maybe things are different in the US, maybe corporate capture has progressed to a point where laws are optional for megacorps. But we still have rule of law and we'd like to keep it that way.

[aabhay]

While there is “law”, how much agency does an average European individual have in shaping those laws? This is a multi national body for which you can’t vote for its leader. You can’t vote on any of its resolutions or referendums.

[rsynnott]

It’s representative democracy, like most democracies. It is, granted, a particularly complex and confusing one.

In practice, the average European has more agency in shaping EU law than the average American does in shaping US law; the US’s electoral system means that, realistically, on a federal level, most peoples’ votes simply do not matter (two party FPTP system, with most seats being safe). The EU parliament is at least multiparty proportional representation, and most member states’ governments are also elected via some sort of PR.

> for which you can’t vote for its leader

Most democracies don’t have a directly elected head of state; it’s _largely_ a thing in the Americas and Africa. In terms of big countries with a true presidential system, you’re really talking the US, Russia, Brazil, Nigeria and Indonesia. I’m, ah, not sure that we should be rushing to emulate those paragons of democracy :)

[vrganj]

The US doesn't have a directly elected head of state either. The demos elects the electoral college, which elects the head of state. Twice in recent memory directly against the popular vote, most recently Trump I.

[tpm]

France does have a directly elected head of state (I wouldn't want to emulate that either, though their system is not purely presidential), as does South Korea, Mexico, Turkey and many other countries really.

[rsynnott]

I mean, look, again, Turkey? South Korea? You’re not really selling it.

[tpm]

" it’s _largely_ a thing in the Americas and Africa" " In terms of big countries with a true presidential system, you’re really talking the US, Russia, Brazil, Nigeria and Indonesia."

These are factual inaccuracies.

South Korea is a functioning democracy. They tend to jail their ex-presidents quite often, but then only those that do deserve it, which is more than we can say about a few western democracies which are very lenient about the criminality of politicians. Ah yes and the president is limited to serving one term.

[vrganj]

For the Council, it is literally just a grouping of our democratically elected heads of state. Those we can of course vote for according to our countries own democratic systems.

For the Commission, our democratically elected national governments each send a representative, so those are as elected as any minister in government is.

For Parliament, the EU demos elects directly.

Not sure where the issue is? It all seems more democratic to me than, say, the Electoral College.