[ZeroGravitas]

Tangentially related Good news: You can avoid about half the greenhouse effects of flight by slightly changing the flight plan to avoid cloud forming regions

Bad news: this generally wasn't counted before and when counted roughly doubles the impact so in some senses you're back to where you started.

But it's a much lower hanging fruit than anything else and as yet we're not doing it.

[kubafu]

A lot of us is avoiding more by choosing not to fly.

[dash2]

I hope I'm not overinterpreting, but I get the sense that you think that's morally better than simply avoiding contrails. If so then this is surely a mistake! While an individual who imposes heavy costs on himself to do something socially valuable is certainly demonstrating commitment to the cause, the best solution for society is the one with the lowest costs.

[lavela]

Please explain how more flights with optimal routing are environmentally cheaper than less flights with optimal routing.

[gblargg]

Sounds like parent was taking into account all costs, not just certain ones.

[mmooss]

Actually, lots of people acting together regularly accomplish things - almost everything wortwhile is accomplished that way, probably back to our non-homo ancestors.

As a simple matter, it keeps my city clean - we all put garbage in the bins (yes there's a law, but no way could it be enforced if the great majority of people didn't do it already). More dramatically and recently, the protests in India.

> society

Society is us - you, me, everyone. Nobody else is coming to help us.

I'm responsible for what I do, for the consequences of my actions. It's embarassing to say it's someone else's job (especially when the someone else is 'society'), and therefore I'm not going to do anything.

[dash2]

I think you've misunderstood my comment. I understand that people can do things together. My point was that the best thing to do together is to solve our problems at lowest total cost, and that choosing a high-cost solution can be individual "virtue signalling".

[mmooss]

> virtue signalling

That term lacks all credibility - it's just a weak attack based on mind-reading - and is a signal itself.

Most people actually want do good - humans naturally are very social and want to do well for the group - and without prioritizing signaling. How sad that some are so politically driven by reactionary politics that their contribution is to snipe at others.

[dash2]

> That term lacks all credibility

I disagree. There's coherent economic theory about how costly actions can be used to provide credible signals. It's been used in a wide variety of disciplines including biology (peacock's tails). No mind-reading is needed. I understand that sometimes it is used by right-wingers to attack left-wing positions. My comment wasn't driven by reactionary politics, and my point was to encourage people to think about what actually does well for the group - which, at the risk of repeating myself, is about minimizing the cost for a given level of benefit.

[mlrtime]

Hint: It's performative. The people who are actually doing this don't come to HN to announce it.

[jtrip]

This is an issue, a question of an issue, with the maximalist position. By simply using trains wherever possible and avoiding 'frivolous' travel a huge impact can be achieved on one's carbon footprint.

[iamgopal]

wandering is human nature, we can not avoid it. with tech, almost 99% reason to travel can be avoided, we human as a nature, we will not skip it.

[ktallett]

Wandering can be slower paced, or to places that are magical but nearer and connected via alternative to planes. Also we can avoid using planes for less important things, like business meetings etc.

[imjonse]

homo sapiens could avoid wandering in the skies for 200k years, yes we can avoid it. Finding joy in life should not really be correlated with flying often to faraway places.

[orphereus]

I don't think that not travelling is the solution. A lot of people cannot avoid flying.

[johanvts]

Just stop subsidizing flying, maybe even tax the fuel a fraction of the value it’s destroying and I bet most of flying will suddenly turn out to actually be completely avoidable.

[shrubby]

Yup. Make the flyers pay the infrastructure costs based on the environmental effects. It's not too complicated.

[tim333]

It is a bit complicated as flying isn't much subsidised in cash terms and if you put large taxes on fuel, flights will divert to nearby countries with less tax.

In the UK there is air passenger duty which is for example £102 per passenger on economy seats to the US. I think they are reluctant to raise it too much incase business shifts elsewhere.

[shrubby]

We're afraid of the zillionaire tantrums, thus this should be a coordinated effort.

I'm seeing it from both sides of the isles that people are being fed up with the overlords.

But currently the zillionaire tantrums control the future so you're right.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

I think advances in remote work tech have had a huge impact on business travel.

Zoom beats Boom.

[mlrtime]

Zoom is also probably the worst software I'm forced to use. The UI and fat client are from 2000.

[dbspin]

Insane take - this is just ensuring that the only people who get to enjoy travel are the rich. Nothing in our society is improved by taking a privilege that's widely enjoyed and restricting it to the wealthy or very wealthy.

[port11]

It’s a privilege with most externalities _not_ taken into account, i.e. it’s hurting us all because we ignore its true cost and make it available in vast quantities.

Since the global South will suffer the most from climate change, they might disagree with developed nations ‘subsiding’ flights.

[dbspin]

The phrase the global south elides the fact that those countries are far higher in inequality than the West. Wealthy elites being the only ones able to travel isn't a solution to climate change, it's a recipe for a degree of social control we haven't seen in a century. We can fight climate change, and increase mobility, standard of living and freedom for all. There is an enormous amount of low hanging fruit here - from switching to renewables, to moving militaries off gas and oil, to switching cargo ships to renewable energy. Trapping humanity in their nation of birth shouldn't be the go to first step. The consequences of that degree of social control aren't being allowed for here.

[mmooss]

I'm very willing to subsidize universal access to food, shelter, education, healthcare ... not long-haul air travel.

[beepbooptheory]

Why is it still considered a 'privilege' if everyone should absolutely be able to use it?

[johanvts]

I dont disagree, but that's just how capitalism works. And it does solve a problem, there will be less airtravel.

[dbspin]

There are no purely capitalist states on earth. Not one. We all live in mixed economies, where some aspects of market are regulated or even entirely state controlled. e.g.: defense spending, road construction etc etc. Where exactly that money should be spent, and according to what moral framework - these are political and ethical questions. But to handwave and say 'capitalism' is meaningless. Capitalism itself, in it's modern highly financialised form - is entirely reliant on state force, the rule of law, regulation, market protectionism etc to function.

[CalRobert]

In many instances there are alternatives. Amsterdam to Berlin is served by good rail (except when DB are crappy) and flight options. NYC to DC or Boston. Maybe, someday, SF to LA, and others.

[jtwaleson]

IMHO you can remove the "good" and "except when". DB is 30% of the time a frustrating experience, which I've noticed makes me want to avoid it, even though I love trains. Trains in the rest of Western Europe are pretty great!

[port11]

Boy what happened to DB since 2022? That was when I last travelled in Germany and I was never able to relate to everyone’s online complaints about them.

Did Berlin to Nessau through small routes: wonderful. Berlin to Prague? Stellar, if long. Berlin to Munich? Amazing all 4-5 times, unless they forget to stock up on soft pretzels.

[CalRobert]

Insane delays and cancellations. I’ve taken them Amsterdam to Berlin, Utrecht to Frankfurt, etc and only one trip has managed not to be multiple hours late. In one case a train ended early and I had to run like hell with my folding bike to cram on to a packed bus for an hour ride to the next station.

[CalRobert]

Fair, Deutsche Bahn is awful. Went to Berlin with them last November and instead of getting in at 9:00 PM we got in at 1 AM, which was especially horrible given we had a 6 and 8 year old with us.

[jtwaleson]

They just cancelled a train from Amsterdam to Munich for me and never replied to my form for a refund. I called them about. Had to spend 600 extra for a sleeper instead.

[ufmace]

Ehhhh I think it'd be more accurate to say that in a small percentage of potential routes there are alternatives.

[shrubby]

Most people on the planet can avoid flying alright.

The addicts cannot? Or who cannot? Anyone with money cannot?

Homo fricking economicus for you alright.

[delusional]

We should be careful not to confound a call to reduce with a call to eliminate. I don't think most people want to completely abolish modern air travel.

[tngranados]

But even more people can

[gleglegle]

contrails.org do a great job of explaining this and have some solid interactive tools that allow you to simulate the effect of flight plan changes: https://explore.contrails.org/explorer?time_start=2025-01&ti...

[mi_lk]

how do know if a route would go through cloud forming regions

[rafram]

Google Flights shows a “contrail warming potential” stat on each flight result.

[hahahaa]

Not you the airline operations using weather radar I assume.

[CrimsonRain]

because doing this will increase costs instead of performative actions.

[dr_dshiv]

So, getting better at manipulating clouds will help prevent planetary heating. I assume there is a huge amount of public support for this scientific research?

[cassepipe]

No, you misunderstood what this is about

[dr_dshiv]

I thought this was about being able to fly without harm to the environment— which it sounds like we could do if we master clouds.

[cassepipe]

Sure but you extrapolated to weather modification, the initial idea is to go around/avoid some area

[dr_dshiv]

…as a form of cloud control. If we are already doing it inadvertently, we may as well do it well.