[irishcoffee]

This frustrates me so much. Where is the money coming from? The middle class _is_ the economy, if they all decide to say “fuck it, UBI is enough” or can’t get a job, who the hell is funding UBI? This is an enormous hole in the UBI discussion that’s just completely ignored.

Again, we can’t even keep social security solvent, which is basically UBI for old people. It won’t work, the math doesn’t math, and everyone who wants UBI to be a thing just completely ignores this fact.

So frustrating.

[tossandthrow]

You don't appear to understand what money is.

Money is a claim on productivity.

In a world where both creation and consumption is by humans, the productivity needs to align with consumption.

Arguably, that is a century since that was the case, so we tax extra productive human beings in order to make sure that everybody can consume.

This trend need to be accelerated as productivity accelerates.

Ubi, negative tax, etc. There are many good ideas on how to fix it.

However,if this discussion annoys you, I would strongly recommend you to learn more about the subject as it is indicative that you have some holes in your knowledge.

[nuancebydefault]

The money is just a gauge of how much food, housing, clothing, energy,... one person can consume versus another. Money is not absolute, it is relative x/y. Ultimately, the real stuff can be produced by machines operated by say 10 percent of the world population. Machines or robots or even AI can pay taxes, their owner hands over xx percent of the income produced by it to the government who gives it as eg ubi to people.

[UltraSane]

"Where is the money coming from? "

Profitable companies. This is incredibly obvious. It is where dividends come from already.

You keep mentioning social security but it isn't comparable as it has a relatively low income cap on payroll taxes and raising this easily makes it solvent.

What is actually frustrating is the wealth of the richest 400 people in the US now equals 20% of GDP. In 1982 it was only 2%. THE MONEY IS THERE!

[irishcoffee]

It’s not. It’s really not. I’m sure you’re familiar with people borrowing against their wealth to avoid taxes. That’s where this fictional money exists.

[dekken_]

All fiat is fiction. I was a bit glib in my other comment, but fundamentally there is only energy interactions, and there is no free energy.

[UltraSane]

GDP/hour can increase and HAS increased drastically.

[dekken_]

GDP isn't real champ, try again.

[UltraSane]

Then please suggest a meaningful quantitative replacement, champ.

[UltraSane]

It isn't anymore fictional than stock dividends just allocated differently.

[irishcoffee]

Wealthy people are wealthy because of their stock portfolios. If they liquidate that, everything collapses.

The money isn’t real, and I think you do understand that.

[UltraSane]

You don't seem to know what dividends are. Dividends are x dollars for every share you own that the company gives you that come from the company profits. As a worked example Larry Ellison owns 1.16 billion shares of Oracle. Oracle has paid a total of $1.50 per share in dividends so far in 2026. That is $1.74 billion of liquid cash flowing into Ellison's pocket while Oracle fires tens of thousands of people. Please stop talking if you don't understand what you are talking about.

[irishcoffee]

You sincerely think I don’t know what dividends are, given the rest of this discussion? Honestly?