[ynac]

We just had our first bear crossing on a wildlife here in the Northwest.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/first-black-bear-u...

I know these things are more complicated than they seem at first, but whenever these stories surface, I immediately go to an idealistic childhood cartoon land where we have a prime directive that tells us to go forth(!) and watch out for each other!

[vjvjvjvjghv]

I always wonder how the world would look if the bible had said "Respect the earth and all living beings" instead of “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion…"

[harimau777]

A lot of Christians argue that it does say exactly that. In Genesis 2:15, God tells Adam to care for the planet:

The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.

Of course fundamentalists tend not to see it that way.

[RunSet]

A lot of Christians have also argued that god would not allow a species he created to go extinct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction#History_of_scientif...

So perhaps holy books are not the best manuals for environmental stewardship.

Genesis also gives the impression that plant life primarily exists for humans to eat. Humans don't need any encouragement to favor edible plants over inedible, to judge by their tendency to cut down forests to grow crops.

"Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. They will be yours for food."

[echelon_musk]

> Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

John 2:15

[hoten]

(that's 1 John 2:15 - John 2:15 is the one where Jesus attacks the money changers)

The next line is critical for context, as it defines what "things in the world" means.

> [...] For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

Seems clear to me this isn't about creation (ie not saying don't cherish nature / animals).

[lotsofpulp]

The tribe with the bible that directed to multiply would have conquered the tribe with the bible that directed respect the earth and all living beings because back then, might was proportional to population.

[mr_toad]

“ It has not occurred to you that your ancestors were survivors and that the survival itself sometimes involved savage decisions, a kind of wanton brutality which civilized humankind works very hard to suppress. What price will you pay for that suppression? Will you accept your own extinction?”

- Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

[underlipton]

The same can be said for moments where avoiding savage decisions resulted in survival; when oblivion was the alternative, and where it was the result of humanity's capacity for compassion and cooperation overcoming "civilized" humankind's tendency towards a banal and unthinking brutality.

Remember that, multiple times in the past half-century, the protocol was to launch all ICBMs and pray.

[gambiting]

Which is kinda hilarious given that despite being called a tyrant, Leto II had basically created a post scarcity society that was almost entirely castrated of violence or capacity for it. He kept chastising people for that desire to tame those base instincts but he was doing the exact same thing. It's just a funny thing to quote given the context of his character.

[user-]

better to attribute it to God Emperor Leto Atreides II , not Frank Herbet the author

[nvarsj]

Well no king would ever accept and propagate that religion.

[constantius]

As another sibling points out, creation before the fall, so.the animals and humans in the garden of eden, were vegan.

There is also a theory that Jesus was vegan and a belief that Christians should be too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism#Biblic...

[aziaziazi]

I was introduced to this idea by the excellent documentary https://christspiracy.com/

Video is an interesting format but I'm glad you shared that page, text is more appropriate to dive into a subject.

[constantius]

> Is there a spiritual way to kill an animal? How would Jesus kill an animal?

Amazing question. I'm not spiritual, but regularly debate this topic with others (including here): this will be a useful way of approaching it. Thanks for posting the link!

[hombre_fatal]

There are infinite alterations you can make to the bible to make it more moral, like remove the parts where innocent people are punished on someone else’s behalf (raped, stoned, killed) or commanded to enslaved others and take virgins as the spoils of war.

Thankfully over the centuries some people have used their human moral intuitions to gloss over some of the worst parts. But would’ve been much nicer to not have those parts at all.

[haunter]

tbh that’s my biggest problem with it, the cherry picking. Either everything is true or nothing, but once they start cherry picking the whole thing falls apart step by step

[dylan604]

> alterations you can make to the bible to make it more moral

this is brilliant. The book that is supposed to the be the word on morality needs edits. I can hear the religious right gathering their pitchforks and tiki lights now. It's a perfect book written by the almighty. But for those that don't drink that particular kool-aid it's a self evident observation since it's a book of cherry picked stories by a group of people to push their agenda.

[smj-edison]

Depends how you interpret it tbh. At least in my tradition the focus is on seeing the good, bad, and ugly of history. There's many bible stories that are more cautionary tales than role models.

Now to be fair, there's also examples of God (as portrayed by the writers) being vindictive and harsh. I don't have great answers for that, but I do wonder how much it is seeing through their perspective of the situation and how much it was God. (I obviously come at this as a believer).

As to being the only moral text... I certainly hope it's not, because we've learned a lot since then, and I hope what's considered truth can expand beyond one book.

EDIT: not to dismiss your points, just to say that some of us view it in a more nuanced way.

[HiPhish]

All living being want to literally eat you in one way or another. You can respect the earth, but first you have to subdue it and have dominion, otherwise it will kill you.

[embedding-shape]

Not at all true, plenty of herbivores out there that doesn't care for humans as nutrition. Plenty of cultures out there living side by side with earth without subjugating it, and it still hasn't killed those people.

[chmod775]

Most omnivores and carnivores won't touch humans with a ten foot pole either.

But that's because they're either too smart to try or we have altered their genetic makeup by culling anyone who strayed too close.

[embedding-shape]

For better or worse, not that many people meet hungry carnivores vs "I could go without human for now" carnivores. They're generally kind of risk averse until hunger strikes, then any existing reason/logic (since you claimed "too smart") goes out the window.

[Jensson]

It would look like India.

[infogulch]

"be fruitful" and "replenish the earth" is already aligned

As for "subdue", ask anyone maintaining a large garden how much they have to work to keep it from reverting back to a wilderness. Gardening is choosing which species stay and which are forcibly removed and optimizing the environment to enable your chosen species to thrive. If the words "subdue" and "dominion" freak you out, pick your brains up off the floor and go touch grass.

Western civilization has decided that it wants to keep the primate species and is dissatisfied when they become roadkill, so it altered the environment to enable the chosen species to thrive. This article is a gardening success story. Gardening requires dominion. We have dominion over the primates and we have chosen to be benevolent with that dominion.

[rbanffy]

> so it altered the environment

The motorway was not a natural occurrence, and neither cars or trucks evolved naturally. Humans went there and installed a limited fix for the destruction they caused in the first place.

[infogulch]

I put a path in my garden so I can continue to maintain the garden, and walk around and enjoy it. But oh no, my daisies are wilting because they're too close to the path. So I adjust the path, raise the bed a little bit, and add a border, and they're happy after a little bit of water.

Totally normal gardener behavior.

[wredcoll]

Are volcanos natural occurrences? Meteors? Earthquakes floods and fires? Are humans natural? It's a pointless distinction, "nature" is plenty fully of destruction and extinction without humans ever being involved.

[rbanffy]

I’m sure the current mass extinction, which seems to have started at the same time a climate change, which itself started more or less when we learned how to dump unprecedented amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere are causally related.

[wredcoll]

My point isn't that they're unrelated, my point is that mass extinctions aren't unprecedented.

[andrepd]

Jesus, what a bizarrely aggressive response.

[fivestones]

Hmmm. I thought it was thoughtful and informative. I didn’t see any aggression.

[BolsunBacset]

In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, the environment is not a resource, nor is it a god. It is a sacrament. A tangible vehicle of God's uncreated grace. Your status is that of a royal priest who stands between heaven and earth. You are to "subdue" the chaos within your own soul first, and then, with humility and awe, lead all of creation in a perpetual song of thanksgiving, protecting it as you would protect the chalice on an altar. To harm the earth is, quite literally, a sacrilege.

[apple4ever]

Thank you for pointing this out, as Eastern Orthodox Christian.