[zbentley]

Eh, this is a tough conversation for engineering-minded folks because the right answer is probably somewhere in the middle of a few different variables.

Too far towards trying to make mistakes impossible (which is easy for corporations to talk themselves into because it also makes them money and moat) and you make devices useless. Too far towards full user control and you get difficulties in support and security issues (which are tractable if you’re an enthusiast, but not so much if you’re a normie on a corporate-maintained device).

Truthseeking here is further complicated by ordinary end users’ dislikes and usability issues not always overlapping.

[ryandrake]

It requires a nuanced discussion and willingness to compromise to find the right balance. I don't like it myself when, every macOS release, Apple nerfs the system even more and locks down even more, but I also don't like telling my relatives that their system is part of a botnet and that they need to change all their password and call their bank, simply because they saw a popup that told them to download and run TrojanHappyFunGame.

[inigyou]

It used to be common knowledge that downloading stuff could be dangerous. That went away when vendors tried to make it safe.

[ryandrake]

Many software vendors have deliberately blurred the lines between "on your computer" and "on the internet". When you save something in Application A, is it really being saved on your computer, or is it in the cloud? It used to be obvious, but now you kind of don't know until you do some digging in your filesystem. And, now we actually run some apps from the web!

The phrase "the user doesn't have to know if this is on his computer or the cloud" has done a lot of harm to the software ecosystem.

[inigyou]

I don't think that's the real problem. The point was that opening something you don't know what it does == bad, not that internet == bad