[emmapersky]

What is wrong with stereotypes is that they are stereotypes. They are fine as theoretical constructs in an educated debate, but they reek havoc on those who are still developing their sense of identity.

Gender stereotypes are the reason kids get called fag or dyke at school, irrespective of their sexual orientation. This is real, and these kids are suffering terribly because of it. The number of student suicides because of homophobic bullying is on the rise, and it is something we can fight against.

I'm not saying there are no differences (although there are virtually no professions that need be gender specific - men and women can be equally proficient at almost everything), but that we should foster an environment where we minimize those differences because the outcomes of not doing that quite literally destroys lives.

All the evidence you need can be found by checking out the "It Gets Better" campaign started by Dan Savage.

[mattmanser]

Minimizing the differences between the sexes destroys lives by emasculating men, leaving them depressed, unable to secure a mate and suicidal. See, we can all do it. The "It Gets Better" campaign has nothing to do with this, taking a tiny subsection of the population and trying to say it shoud apply to us all is bad science.

I am absolutely fine with saying we should foster the understanding that there are different gender choices than just hetro male/female. That we should embrace those choices as willingly as the other two.

What I am vehemently opposed to is your outrageous view that the way to do that is for us all to become the same. I'm for more choices, not less.

[subsystem]

"Minimizing the differences between the sexes destroys lives by emasculating men, leaving them depressed, unable to secure a mate and suicidal."

Do you have any support for that claim? I've seen much more support for male "suck it up" sterotypes causing suicides, by keeping people from getting help with PTSD and similar issues. Not that the two would be mutually exclusive.

[emmapersky]

You are putting words into my mouth, and attacking me with an ad hominem (outrageous is totally unnecessary there). I never indicated we should all be the same, rather we should all be free to develop our identities without the social constructs that society puts in our way. If you want yo express your identity by farting, belching and touching your groin every five minutes, I'm fine with that. But if toy go round saying that women should do that, or its unladylike, or in any other way assert those behaviors as masculine to kids and teens who have no had a chance to fully form their identities, well then we have a problem.

As for source material, the bibliography of Delusions of Gender is a good place to start.

[irahul]

> I never indicated we should all be the same, rather we should all be free to develop our identities without the social constructs that society puts in our way.

Minimizing differences, which you have advocated again and again, imply we should all be same.

[afuchs]

The OP's article describes a Swedish school's overreaction to gender bias by forcing behaviour modification on students who display gender-conforming behaviour. This is an overreaction to gender bias issues both real and perceived. Ignoring the context presented by the article, emmapersky is advocating gender neutrality. They aren't advocating the forced minimization of gender differences; they want to end bias against those who display gender-variant behaviour.

Gender bias is present in our society along with the pressure to conform to gender stereotypes. Boys who play with dolls are often bullied by other boys and are socially rejected by their peers. Girls who don't dress the right way are bullied by other girls and are also socially rejected by their peers. In adult life, men who chose careers such as nursing are chastised for it by members of both genders. Women who chose professional careers are pressured forgo their careers to have children, again, by the members of both genders. To those who take gender-variant roles, this is a problem.

While there is a problem, some overreact to it trying to treat gender-conforming behaviour as a disease; as this example in the article:

  Hunter College psychologist Virginia Valian, a strong
  proponent of Swedish-style re-genderization, wrote in the
  book Why So Slow? The Advancement of Women, "We do not
  accept biology as destiny ... We vaccinate, we inoculate,
  we medicate... I propose we adopt the same attitude toward
  biological sex differences."

That is not a reasonable solution. Gender-variant behaviour should be tolerated instead of being discouraged. The article's conclusion agrees:

  There was a time when a boy who displayed a persistent
  aversion to trucks and rough play and a fixation on frilly
  dolls or princess paraphernalia would have been considered
  a candidate for behavior modification therapy. Today, most
  experts encourage tolerance, understanding, and
  acceptance: just leave him alone and let him play as he
  wants. The Swedes should extend the same tolerant
  understanding to the gender identity and preferences of
  the vast majority of children.

Postscript: Anyone engaged in the debate of gender bias and gender stereotypes should be aware of both their own and other's social biases[1].

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biases_in_judgment_and_...;

[irahul]

> Gender-variant behaviour should be tolerated instead of being discouraged.

I never contended that. I said the same thing when I said elsewhere that all attempts to eradicate differences are not only misguided, they are dangerous. People are different and should be allowed to be different. We should embrace the differences.

[irahul]

> I'm not saying there are no differences (although there are virtually no professions that need be gender specific - men and women can be equally proficient at almost everything), but that we should foster an environment where we minimize those differences because the outcomes of not doing that quite literally destroys lives.

I have absolutely 0 interest in minimizing difference. Some people are straight, some are gay. Straights should act a little gay, or gays should try to be straight to minimize differences?

Minimizing differences is not the objective, embracing differences is.

[emmapersky]

Sadly I think you have completely missed the point here. The notion that there is a way to act gay or straight is exactly what is being debated.

[irahul]

> Sadly I think you have completely missed the point here

What point did I miss? From the very beginning of this thread, you are advocating minimizing differences? And I am saying minimizing differences is bad. There are differences - gender differences, sexual preference difference, personality difference...Minimizing differences is not only misguided, it's wrong.