[runtime_terror]

Why do we think it's our job to intervene in other countries like this?

And if we wanted to help another country, working with the international community should be the only approach we take.

We've spent many decades overthrowing countries to what end? Even our vassals like Israel have universal healthcare while we're all in debt because of healthcare. It's not working and needs to stop.

[Galaxeblaffer]

In this case, the US was pretty involved in destabilizing the country. If the us and the uk hadn't intervened in 50s, Iran would have made a successful transition from monarchy to democracy. I guess we can discuss if the US owes anything to anyone, but a case for the us correcting earlier mistakes can definitely be made.

[qntmfred]

there's much more to the story of Iran than the simple "oh of course the UK and US are bad"

[Galaxeblaffer]

Og course there's so much more to the story.. but the fact is that the monarchy was effectively overthrown and shah had given up power and fled the country. In this particular instance it's very simple.. the us and the uk was bad

[frollogaston]

Pahlavi was basically disconnected from the West by the middle to end of his reign, not an ally at all. Pahlavi's Iran cofounded OPEC, nationalized their oil in 1973, and pressured OPEC to raise prices. Really makes me wonder.

[qntmfred]

just bc the shah fled the country doesn't mean the us and uk were bad or even the root cause. same kind of simple-minded ignorance that led to Mossadegh's rise in the first place.

[frollogaston]

I can't assume that Iran would've successfully transitioned to democracy, or that it's even what should happen there. All those Arabian Gulf countries are monarchies.

[senderista]

never mind that Iran has a totally different language, culture and history

[frollogaston]

I don't know Islam's exact role in Iranian government, but it clearly has one, as it determined the last revolution there. But more importantly, they're in a region of monarchies and dictatorships. Not saying they can't be a democracy, it's just a big assumption to make that they would've been, like I really don't see any reason.

Btw, lots of Arabic influence in Iranian culture. Yeah separate Indoeuropean language, but Arabic alphabet, tons of Arabic loanwords, and required Arabic lessons partially to help read the Quran. There's a reason the Pahlavis wanted to emphasize Aryan pride instead.

[Teever]

It comes down to the simple reality that "I am because we are" and as such any time a human being is oppressed we are all oppressed.

One could make the argument the people who live in liberal democracies have an obligation to help those who unfortunately do not and who are still forced to live under autocratic oppression.

There were periods in history where most people lived under the thumb of some sort of autocrat of one form or another be they monarchs or religious leaders. Most people had very few human rights and had little opportunity for self-determination. Through the hard work of revolutionaries around the world many of those autocrats were deposed and others seeing the writing on the wall offered power to the people more willingly.

Think of it like a jailbreak where the jailer is oppressive and everyone in the jail is innocent. On your wait out should help open the cells of as many people as you can if only out of your own self interest because a larger mob escaping gives each individual a better chance to escape due to strength in numbers but also because it's just the right thing to do.

It's sort of the same thing here, Our ancestors (or even some of us) got out from under the thumb of an autocrat jailer but there are still others in that jail. If we don't help them who will? What would you want someone else to do if you were in their situation? To walk by an unjustly imprisoned person's jail cell and not free them when it is trivial to do so makes you the jailer.

Now that's the theory. In practice, I agree with much of what you're saying -- reality is a far trickier place than we'd like and the details make doing the right thing difficult if not impossible. And that doesn't cover the reality that western democracies are imperfect themselves and that many of their citizens are still subject to repression by their own autocratic leaning leaders, and so that we can't always do the right thing, but we should at least aspire to.

[badpun]

If you overthrow one autocrat and the society is not ready to self-govern, you'll just have another one taking his place. The best you can do is to fund some kind of democratic opposition on the ground and in exile, hoping to grow a political class mature enough that they will take over after autocrat loses power one way or another.

[don_esteban]

Maybe the best you can do is just don't meddle in other's internal affairs.

Just think how would you feel if other countries interfered 'with all good intentions, of course' in the internal affairs of your country.

[badpun]

If I were living in brutal dictatorship that has majority support (that’s today Russia) I’d really want foreign powers to „meddle”. But an average Russian likes the current state and hence hates any foreign attempts at influence.

[frollogaston]

Btw, Iran does have an opposition group in exile in the US, and nobody is trying to reinstate them. I'm not saying they should be, just that Trump's talk about changing the govt in Iran isn't in good faith.

[ferbivore]

Trump is not Che Guevara. The US doesn't send troops at great personal danger to themselves to help oppressed revolutionaries. They back fascist dictatorships and launch drone strikes. They murdered 120 children on day one in Iran. Buying the party line here is absurd.

[TiredOfLife]

> Why do we think it's our job to intervene in other countries like this?

If Iran wasn't supporting terror organizations around the world and didn't help russia I would agree. Their country, they can kill as much of their own people as they please.

[senderista]

> our vassals like Israel

Are you sure it isn’t the other way around?

[js4ever]

are you saying jews control the world?

[inigyou]

No, they're saying America is a vassal of Israel. Very different statement.

[frollogaston]

Exactly. It's not US imperialism. I'm not against US imperialism.

[inigyou]

You probably should be?

[frollogaston]

Nope, I don't care about the belief system they tried to force on us in school. Venezuela made sense to intervene in, so did Cuba back then.