[sarreph]

I too find it a pity that the em-dash has been co-opted by AI. I use a double-hyphen ("--", the old school way of writing it), but fear that this will also become used by AI seeking a higher form of 'sophistication' as you put it.

We're experiencing broad scale changes in the sentiment of style in written English. I don't know what the best approach to take here is necessarily, but the more I see language evolving over time (especially over the past two decades) I think I'd prefer to shift my habits in line with whatever the "modern standard" is in order to avoid falling into pitfalls, i.e. being accused of being an AI writer.

[1718627440]

> ("--", the old school way of writing it)

The old school of writing it in digital documents. Typesetting predates and is not limited to digital documents.

[sarreph]

Good point, but I think it's a little more complex than that.

To my knowledge (and what I meant by "old school"), it was common to type a "--" dash on typewriters[0] because most of them lacked en- and em-dashes, which are obviously not digital documentation devices.

But yes, typesetters of old (old, old school!) had myriad glyph blocks available to them for pressing!

--

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typewriter#Typewriter_conventi...

[1718627440]

On a typewriter you can write symbols overlapping, so if you write '--' it becomes '–'.

[sarreph]

Sure... But overstriking takes more time and effort, which is why "--" was the convention.

[Telemakhos]

The double-hyphen is by no means "old school": it's a kludge for twentieth-century systems like typewriters and word processors that did not have em dashes or an easy way to insert them. The very names "em dash" and "en dash" should illustrate their age: they go back to the fifteenth century, and "em" and "en" were standard printing widths in moveable type. People who write CSS still recognize em as a width.

The idea that a double-hyphen is "old school" is on par with the false notion that double-spacing between sentences is a product of the typewriter; one need only look at a typeset book from before the twentieth century to see the truth, or look at a decent image of the Declaration of Independence or other hand-written document from prior centuries to see the extra space left between sentences.

Many of the changes we see in written English style are the product of ignorance of the past beyond two generations or so. Avoiding em-dashes to keep up with the latest anti-AI fad is just reacting mindlessly to the stimulus of popular ignorance instead of deliberately situating one's style in the history of writing conventions.

[sarreph]

As per sibling comment, I think my "old school" wording is getting misconstrued here. I did mean 20th-century "old school", i.e. typewriters... Is the Late Middle Ages considered "old school"? :)

Agreed that in terms of precedent, typesetters had moveable type dashes for their presses.

> the fifteenth century, and "em" and "en" were standard printing widths in moveable type. People who write CSS still recognize em as a width.

This is very interesting!

[KPGv2]

I'm going to write my response using vernacular English so as to avoid AI claims, so pardon my French.

> We're experiencing broad scale changes in the sentiment of style in written English.

Lol no we're not. The only people who give a fuck about this em dash AI bullshit are losers on Tumblr and commenters on fanfiction sites who are obsessed with the idea that AI is the current Great Evil.

This is the orthographical equivalent of the New York Times running an article that soy-glazed avocado bouillon is the latest trend among Millennials because, like, one of the editors caught their college dropout son eating it one morning at the family table. Son said "duh dad everyone's doing it" to fuck with his dad, and next thing you know, a hundred think pieces on Mexican-Japanese breakfast being trendy.

I've never met an adult in my professional or personal life who actually gives a shit about this. We're talking a fraction of a percent of people who don't want you to use AI, and a fraction of that who waste their life trying to detect it.

Write the way you want. If people can read it, that's all that matters.

Apologies for the French. Blame Canada.

*Edit* Also the em dash is based. Using a double dash should be a prison sentence.