[jstimpfle]

Well that's a lie. I've long been back to raw pointers and it's by far the easiest way to do it. All of Pimpl, unique_ptr, and whatever other clever mechanism (I'm not even looking at std::indirect anymore) just aren't really ergonomic.

Nobody needs "deep copying", ever. It's not even well defined what it should mean (i.e. how deep etc.). It's purely a theoretical problem with no good practical (one-fits-all) solution. The only practical way is to copy what you need copied, when you need it. Done.

[gblargg]

The whole point of pimpl is to store additional per-object state in a separate object (to reduce header dependencies). So it should act just like normal member variables for standard constructors and assignment.

[bluGill]

Easiest way to make a silly mistake and have your program break from memory safety errors.

[jstimpfle]

Well, the best way to prevent mistakes is to make everything super complicated and damn hard to do. The best way to prevent mistakes is to approach it to do the essential stuff and avoid the fluffy stuff.

[bluGill]

Huh? The best way to prevent mistakes is to make doing it right easy. Manually doing everything just means a lot of room to mess up. Using the newer constructs my means you can't make a mistake as the hard work is done correctly for you. Zero cost abstraction means that it has no downside to manually doing it.

C++ is trivial compared to the code I work on. If you are writing hello world complexity then C++ might be complex but some of us work on hard problems.

[jstimpfle]

I understand C++ as well, or better, than most (or all) of my peers, and certainly betters than people on here thinking they need to explain to me how RAII works. Do you want to argue that C++ RAII / objects stuff isn't complex and doesn't put considerably restrictions on how you design your app, then maybe you should reconsider.

I would argue that if cleaning up resources properly is among the hard problems, or among the most error-prone problems in your code, then maybe you're problems aren't that hard or complex after all.

I'm currently working on a distributed caching system and on real time voxel geometry boolean operations simulation (on GPU), both on the scale of >= 10^9. Is that "complex" enough? Both are done in C++. C++ helps exactly 0 in achieving any of these things (as opposed to using plain C), well the one help is I don't have to type 'struct' all the time.

In fact, in one of these projects I was pushed to use STL initially. I'm now working on getting rid of the last of them because we have had concurrency bugs and performance problems from using them. The code was not obvious and using STL containers (std::deque is very bad specifically) meant the actual runtime characteristics depend on which STL implementation is being compiled in. It would have been easier to just do straightforward obvious manual code.

[feelamee]

I'm interesting which C++ features also helps you to design such systems. I think basic RAII/function overloading/templates should give a lot of capabilities comparing with plain C?

> (as opposed to using plain C)

Also, curious - how plain C helps with this?

[jstimpfle]

I've found that RAII and the stuff you have to buy into in order to use RAII come with more downsides than upsides once you scale beyond high level programs that try to get done a lot with very few lines.

> how plain C helps with this?

By staying out of the way and providing everything of what you actually need in the end. That is assuming a detail oriented approach where you deeply think about, and want to be flexible about, the organization of what your program should do. As programs grow into large architectures, and as programs get more performance conscious, they also get more detail oriented like that, and they tend to opt out of unflexible high level language features.