[sillysaurusx]

> Proprietary model weights are IP

Not copyrightable IP, or at least it hasn't been challenged yet. I have experience with this: I made llama-dl, a way to download the original llama model. Meta issued a DMCA, I appealed to the HN community for funds, someone funded, and our lawyer successfully counterclaimed. Never heard from Meta again.

A lack of response to the counterclaim doesn't mean the issue is settled. But now there's legal precedent for people pushing back against companies that claim model weights are secret IP and therefore DMCA-able.

[kube-system]

Congrats on your efforts, but by definition that does not count as legal precedent. At a bare minimum, a legal precedent is some sort of written holding by a court with authority. Even an out-of-court settlement doesn't count.

[sillysaurusx]

It was referenced by other legal cases. Why would they mention it if it didn’t help their case?

[kube-system]

Because lawyers have a broad ability to simply attempt to persuade the other party -- and "Meta is a big rich company with lots of lawyers and they didn't pursue this" is valuable because it is something that could persuade the opposing side not to bring a case. It wouldn't persuade a court if it got that far, but it could be useful in convincing someone not to bring it to court. (e.g. "are Meta's high paid lawyers smarter than me? am I wasting my time and money by bringing this to trial?")

Precedent is a different thing -- that's a court decision that other courts could/should/must follow.

[deaton]

I do wonder if their "fair use" argument preempts them from actually being able to claim copyright over the model weights, since it can be argued that the vast majority of what the model is is itself a remix of everything else. Maybe their RLHF, system prompts, architecture and training techniques can be considered copyrightable, but maybe most of the data can't.

[anon373839]

Closed model weights probably do qualify as trade secrets, though. But I agree 100% that anything extractable from the API outputs is not secret and does not qualify. And they certainly aren’t copyrighted or patented.