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by aboardRat4 6 days ago
Okay, I misunderstood you, sorry.

Yes, the system as you are describing it makes no sense.

>Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination based on national origin

Maybe the USA is like this. I haven't and seen such an interpretation of "national origin" anywhere else in the world.

I have only ever heard the term "national origin" with respect to _citizens_. E.g. you were a Pakistani, married a Chinese took Chinese citizenship, you are a Chinese citizen, but your "national origin" is still Pakistani. Of course discrimination on the basis of something which is not in the documents is illegal. You are a Chinese no matter where you were born. But if you are born as Pakistani and are still a Pakistani, then the term "national origin" makes no sense.

>Your proposed scenario seems like it breaks anti-discrimination law.

Again, possibly the USA is unique in this respect. Where I live (as well as my previous country) the anti discrimination law is strict, but it only extends to the government institutions. And I'm finding it baffling that it may happen to be otherwise in other countries.

State universities cannot reject students based on race or sex. Buses must carry everyone regardless. Police must accept complains from all. Of course.

But prohibiting private people from freely exercising their basic rights of liking and disliking whoever they want (and consequently making or not making commercial agreements with them) is such a mind-blowing example of tyranny that it's hard to even imagine for my third-world brain.

1 comments

This was a tangent starting with "I find the RealID opposition baffling." at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48983452 .

I oppose Real ID because I don't understand the problem it's trying to solve, and it seems expensive and cumbersome for at least some.

Real ID is a US-only issue, so I interpreted "If you are worried that your tenant might happen to be an illegal migrant" in the US context.

In the US case, quoting https://www.eeoc.gov/national-origin-discrimination :

> National origin discrimination involves treating workers (applicants or employees) unfavorably or favorably because they are from a particular country or part of the world, because of ethnicity or accent, or because they appear to be of a certain ethnic background (even if they are not).

> National origin discrimination can include preferring foreign workers, including workers with a particular visa status, over American workers.

> National origin discrimination also can involve treating people unfavorably because they are married to (or associated with) a person of a certain national origin.

In where you live, and where you used to live, a business can refuse service to a minority group? To indigenous people? What about to someone whose boyfriend is a member of a minority group?

You write 'exercising their basic rights of liking and disliking whoever they want (and consequently making or not making commercial agreements with them)'.

The "consequently" is doing some heavy lifting. In the US you have the basic rights of liking and disliking whoever you want. This is part of the freedom of assembly, which is the US way of saying the freedom of association.

Commercial agreements for services available to the public, however, are interpreted under different rules than private agreements. In the US you are free, under the law, to run a private club which refuses black people, Jewish people, women, and so one. These all exist.

However, if your club is open to the public, then you cannot discriminate on race, religion, or sex.

(Technically the US had federal civil rights laws, which under our federal system only apply to businesses large enough to nominally be involved in interstate commerce. However, state laws essentially extend this to everyone, with a few carve-outs for, for example, a women looking for a housemate and insisting they be another woman.)

Do you live in one of the handful of countries which are not signatory to the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination? Quoting from https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/cerd.pdf

"In compliance with the fundamental obligations laid down in article 2 of this Convention, States Parties undertake to prohibit and to eliminate racial discrimination in all its forms and to guarantee the right of everyone, without distinction as to race, colour, or national or ethnic origin, to equality before the law, notably in the enjoyment of the following rights: ... The right to housing .. The right of access to any place or service intended for use by the general public, such as transport hotels, restaurants, cafes, theatres and parks."

Almost every third-world country is signatory, so it can't be some broad "third-world brain" viewpoint.

>The right to housing .. The right of access to any place or service intended for use by the general public, such as transport hotels, restaurants, cafes, theatres and parks.

The right of access and the right to housing are not affected. The police will not evict a person of colour from a rented accommodation, and will not assist a shop owner with kicking out a person of colour from their shop.

But a right is not an entitlement. In order to rent a private room or buy something in a private shop, both parties should agree.

Again, quoting the convention, "equality before the law". A business owner is not a representative of the law. The police and the civil servants treat everyone equally.

>In where you live, and where you used to live, a business can refuse service to a minority group?

A private business can refuse anyone. That's because it is private. "The transaction is not seen as profitable." The most popular reason for refusal though is not race, origin, or citizenship, it's not having an app to pay for the service, because most small businesses don't bother accepting cash any more. The government is theoretically trying to deal with this issue by running propaganda campaigns "accept cash!", but I think the battle is lost.

>Real ID is a US-only issue, so I interpreted "If you are worried that your tenant might happen to be an illegal migrant" in the US context.

Yes, I got confused, apologies. I still don't see why the US cannot just issue passports to all citizens, and treat a passport as a universal ID (or mandate that all state-issued IDs be universally recognized), but it's unrelated to the "Real ID".

So in the country you live in, a shop owner is free to kick out women from his phone store, simply for being a woman. India banned discrimination on the basis of caste back in 1947. Does that something you can imagine with your "third-world brain"?

The US used to use this logic until around 1960. It was a horrible country, at least if you were black. Even if a white person wanted to offer housing to black people, the white person was discriminated against. Collective private action used to reinforce a white supremacist social structure.

That's why we needed laws to require public services be available without discrimination based on race, religion, and various other protected classes.

"A private business can refuse anyone. That's because it is private."

A business may be privately owned while doing business with the public. That is quite different than a privately owned business which operates a private club.

Furthermore, businesses are subject to regulations that private people do not have. This is clear in organization structures like a limited company, where the company is a recognized as being legally distinct from its owners. These companies exist only because the government says so, which means the government can control what they can or cannot do.

It's also clear in places like licensing, where someone cannot simply say "I am a medical doctor" and offer medical services, and in other regulations like food safety, where restaurants -- even privately owned ones -- are held to standards which people don't have when cooking for themselves.

>So in the country you live in, a shop owner is free to kick out women from his phone store, simply for being a woman

But why would anybody do such a crazy thing? Such things just don't happen, unless it's a gynaecologist office, where men are generally not admitted.

Moreover, we have thousands of shops available. If a shop refuses a customer, they just lose money.

>Even if a white person wanted to offer housing to black people, the white person was discriminated against.

Again, we just don't have such a thing. Don't project your social issues upon us. You can rent or not rent out your flat out to anyone you want, nobody else's business.

>Collective private action used to reinforce a white supremacist social structure.

This is clearly illegal. But I don't see licensing as an answer to this. Just a decent police service is needed.

>It's also clear in places like licensing, where someone cannot simply say "I am a medical doctor"

Because in such cases a concluded transaction can cause non-financial damage to the sides of the said transaction.

It has nothing to do with the bargaining process.

If there is no transaction, there is nothing to discuss.