[ToucanLoucan]

It will never stop being funny to me that China does the exact same shit American corps have been doing since the 70's but because it's scary China it's suddenly a problem.

American startups flood markets with below-cost loss-leader products explicitly to kill competition and create network effects, and then jack the prices just as high, if not higher, for the service in question after the fact, oftentimes while making it so those providing the service earn even less money than they did before. Commentators: "Free market great"

China does the exact same thing: "Communists wanna kill the West"

[jvanderbot]

If you believe in some kind of competition-free objective set of market morals, then yes, this is a strange contradiction.

If you believe that humans are locked in a productive struggle against each other at the organizational level, and that the knife-edge balance is a feature, not a bug, then it's not so weird to think about.

It is simultaneously true that it is in my best interest for prices to sink (as a consumer), for US companies to succeed (as a US citizen), and for my company to win over competitors regardless of whether those competitors are from US, EU, China, or Antarctica.

[ToucanLoucan]

Oh I don't think it's either of those things, I think it's good old fashioned Racism/Xenophobia. We did the same shit to Japan and Korea when they were coming up out of their respective post-war periods, and we still do, to a degree. With China's ruling party also being "communist" (in massive, massive air-quotes) it also lets political actors dust off the McCarthyism to boot.

This is, to be clear, not meant as a ringing endorsement of China, China's policies, or to absolve China of it's wrongdoings, of which there are MANY. It's just to say that it's remarkable to watch the pearl clutching of the privateer capitalist class as state-sponsored capitalism levels their own game up against them and starts taking them to the cleaners instead.

A real Godzilla "let them fight" situation as far as I'm concerned.

[jvanderbot]

So, there's no functional competition or great power struggle or corporate race here? Just racism against chinese people for being chinese? That is your claim specifically?

[ToucanLoucan]

Oh there most certainly is a power struggle/corporate race, for sure. AND I don't think it's pure economics at all, when so much of the rhetoric around that struggle is framed so often with this "America has to defend itself," "China will kill us," "shoot all the communists," ooh-rah United States chest-pounding, etc., it's simply impossible to have that discussion be anything close to good-faith.

If you want my honest take, I think we're well into the beginnings of the downfall of America as the center of world economics, largely and wildly by it's own unnecessary actions, and soon, she will have to learn to be "just another country" as opposed to the central unified "norm" that pervades the world markets, and I'm not sure the U.S. is prepared for that. And I bring that up because I don't think American firms have ever had to contend with other nations being on a footing to, if push comes to shove, tell them to fuck off.

[jvanderbot]

Thank you for sharing your take.

The issue, from my perspective, is that you're mixing predictions with strategy with truth.

Policy/advice does not need to be true to be useful, many just wish it were. "You can do it" is almost certainly false, but by god if people don't love to hear it and it helps them accomplish more. "America is in decline relative to the world" might be true, but is it helping anyone to focus on that?

There are definitely some crazy sentiments about foreign competition, but IMHO those are part of the game. they are the "You can do it" statements that are made to motivate not share factual truth all the time (because who can factually state the future or the motivations of an entire country).

[ToucanLoucan]

> "America is in decline relative to the world" might be true, but is it helping anyone to focus on that?

Helping who? I don't know that it's a help or a not-help, but it is an incoming reality I believe, and the United States as a nation, it's government as an entity, it's corporations as economic units and it's people as... well, people, are used to being deferred to on matters of taste, on matters of policy, in trade negotiations, what have you. The dollar has been the currency of Business for far longer than I've been alive. Almost any country you travel to on this planet has options for English speakers, not just because it's a nice thing to do, but because wealthy travelers from The U.S. (and Britain) are worth pandering to. We are privileged incredibly all over the world and that is largely down to economics: if you wanted to make big money on this planet, you sold your shit to Americans. That was the axiom that built several economies from dust in the East following WWII.

I'm not even commentating here on whether this is good or bad and I don't really think it matters for the purpose of our discussion, but it is true. Americans corporations, leaders, and people are accustomed to a level of deference enjoyed by few other nations, and we're already seeing feathers getting ruffled and tempers flaring when that deference is no longer treated by allies and competitors as required. When America is "left out" of various international politics, it literally makes news.

[Paradigma11]

China lost tons of goodwill through its https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_warrior_diplomacy

[drstewart]

It will never stop being funny to me that China does the exact same shit American corps have been doing since the 70's but because it's glorious China it's suddenly not a problem.

I thought it was evil late-stage capitalism? Suddenly it's a friendly panda bear that just wants to spread love and technology?