[beej71]

This all reminds me about how RealID was vital to secure us from terrorism, and it took 20 years to get it in place... with no significant terrorist actions in that timeframe.

IMHO this level of tracking ain't worth the safety gained. Seems like safety gain is just the excuse at this point.

[matchstickman23]

Not to mention that to get around RealID with flights, you just have to pay $45 and you're good to go. Since we all know that bad actors don't have access to that sort of money...

[cramer4next]

Can you expand on this? How can you board a flight without realID for $45?

[eesmith]

It is called "TSA ConfirmID". https://www.tsa.gov/tsaconfirm-id

"If you are unable to provide the required acceptable ID, such as a passport or REAL ID, you can pay a $45 fee to use TSA ConfirmID. TSA will then attempt to verify your identity so you can go through security; however, there is no guarantee TSA can do so."

From https://thepointsguy.com/news/tsa-security-with-confirmid/ :

"TSA agents pull you aside for secondary screenings and to verify your identity. ... After looking me up in his system, [the supervisor] asked me a series of questions only I could answer (previous addresses and that sort of thing)."

[tjbrock]

Have you been to an airport yet since it became mandatory? They actually have signs around stating it. I had similar thoughts as the GP about that.

[cramer4next]

Not for roughly the last 6 months. I have been using my passport because my old drivers license doesn't expire until next year. I'll have to look closer or read the signs then. Just never noticed that.

[matchstickman23]

Yeah, I've been using my Nexus card, but I've flown with people who forgot their passport and didn't have RealID and they just have you go to a website, pay $45, and show them you've paid and you're on your way. It's very secure :)

[whimsicalism]

A national ID system (standard in effectively all European countries) is table stakes for state capacity. I find the RealID opposition baffling.

[eesmith]

The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. (Apparently Andorra doesn't either.)

You might consider it part of the Anglosphere mentality as Canada, the US, Australia, the Bahamas, and New Zealand don't have national ID.

I've never understood the problem that RealID is supposed to solve.

How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant?

[yeputons]

> The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages.

You have to bring in loads of other random documents to get a passport, for example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44408872

To reliably prove your age (e.g. in a store or a concert venue), you have to get a provisional driving license. If you are not qualified (maybe still disqualified to drive, or eyesight problems), tough luck, I'm not aware of any other government-issued photo ID in the UK. Foreigners previously had BRPs, but they are not issued since 2025, everything is electronic now.

There is also the "PASS" scheme where private providers (like banks) can issue plastic cards with photos, but I've heard they are regularly rejected by various venues as proof of age and/or identity, there is no legal requirement to accept them, just a recommendation. And I can imagine non-UK entities care about these about as much as they do about ISIC. TSA was definitely unhappy when I tried using ISIC about ten years ago for a US domestic flight.

[eesmith]

From that link, 'All this keeps the game interesting and fun, taking weeks and sometimes months to complete'.

Some people in the US take longer than that to get Real ID. Like, elderly black people born in the Jim Crow era where birth records simply weren't kept for them. https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/florida-woman-says-she-ca... , or a missing 50-year-old marriage record - https://local12.com/news/nation-world/elderly-womans-real-id... .

Are you proving your age for a store or a concert venue for alcohol reasons? Don't people age out once they look over 25? Or do venues check for other reasons?

I've read about the big backlash when a national ID scheme for the UK is proposed, so I presume the benefits aren't all that high.

Like, when you check into a hotel, do you have to show ID? https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g186216-i15-k1095345... tells me that it's uncommon. While in the US, I nearly always have to show ID for an overnight room.

Or, in many place in the US, everyone is IDed for alcohol, even if you are 70 years old, which annoys a lot of people who are clearly old enough to drink. Even better, since US privacy laws are so poor, these ID checks also gather demographic information, identify 'high-value customers', and collaborate with other places to ban people -- rather like the facial recognition systems you all have in the UK.

Maybe Brits want to avoid normalizing more id checks?

[aboardRat4]

>How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant?

They can only accept them before IDs are implemented of course, as a poor substitute. After national id documents are standardised, it's just them, nothing else counts.

[eesmith]

That still doesn't tell me what problem it is supposed to solve.

[aboardRat4]

Isn't it nice to have a guaranteed way to prove that (1) you are you, that (2) you are a citizen, that (3) you are over 18, and that (4) you live where you live?

Guaranteed in the sense that (a) it's available instantly, (b) everyone _has to_ accept it, because it's universal.

So you don't have keep paid utility bills with your address, just show your ID card. You don't have to "register as a voter" ever again, just show your ID before getting a ballot.

If you are worried that your tenant might happen to be an illegal migrant, and would risk being deported instead of paying rent next month, just make him show an ID before signing a rental agreement.

[eesmith]

There is a tautological issue here - before Real ID everyone had to accept state-issued ids because that's what people had.

How does Real ID guarantee (1), (3), or (4) better than the state-issued non-Real IDs?

Places are not required to accept all Real IDs as proof of age. A bar, for example, may reject out-of-state ids for proof of age for those who look under 25.

Real ID does not prove citizenship (2). Non-citizen residents may have Real ID.

If a Canadian claims to be a snowbird tourist and wants to rent your guest house for five months, and you are worried that he might happen to be an illegal migrant and would risk being deported instead of paying rent next month, how does Real ID help?

He has no Real ID, only Canadian ID.

Note also that the Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination based on national origin. Landlords must provide equal opportunities regardless of nationality or immigration status.

Your proposed scenario seems like it breaks anti-discrimination law.

Even better, if that person shows you a valid tribal id from a federally recognized tribe, but which is not Real ID compliant, will you rent to him? The feds consider it a valid alternative to Real ID.

[axus]

In the US, we like to reduce state capacity. Helps limit the damage bad actors can do when they are in power.

[coldtea]

And how's that been working out for you?

Not asking whether "reducing state capacity" helps with that. Asking how's that "reducing" going.

[aboardRat4]

Yeah, I'm also curious.

The USA has one of the biggest and most convoluted systems of government in the world, one of the only few where people actually need lawyers to navigate it.

[axus]

The states certifying their own elections is the next convoluted system in the way of unrestrained tyranny, after states controlling identity verification.

Government getting in the way is useful when it impedes other parts of government.

We're definitely going in the wrong direction, but it's been slower than Russia, Turkey, Austria, and others which are following well-worn paths. And the consequences for the world are so much worse if it happens in America.

[aboardRat4]

>The states certifying their own elections is the next convoluted system in the way of unrestrained tyranny, after states controlling identity verification.

And what stops the US from mandating that States provide their citizens with a universal ID of an agreed form? Just like with the elections?

[anticensor]

Except such a federal ID already exists: the Passport Card. Make it free to obtain and mandatory to use.

[mothballed]

Passport card can be revoked over fairly small amounts of late child support which applies to a surprisingly large portion of America, particularly historically oppressed minorities. It would be quite foolish to rely on that for identification if you have children as a simple divorce could put you in instant arrears and cause you to lose your ID.

[aboardRat4]

>Passport card can be revoked over fairly small amounts of late child support

This is clearly ridiculous and not in any way connected to the reason passports exist. It's just purely bureaucratic tyranny.

Even the stated goal of "preventing people from running away to other countries" doesn't work, because the USA doesn't have border service check the passport _on leaving_ the country.

[mothballed]

There is no check on leaving, and our neighbor Mexico not only usually doesn't check, it's constitution* explicitly prohibits requiring passports for entry. And when you return US has to take you back, if citizen, passport or not. So you can easily go to and from Mexico without passport.

Virtually every time I go to Mexico, I'm one of very small % with passport going either direction.

* This is debated and some questionable court cases that actually protected rights of indigenous Mexicans to travel are cited as reasons why this constitutional provision isn't in effect (even though the case was clearly written to protect indigenous rather than justify overthrowing the constitution), but go to a land border with Mexico and 9 of 10 times I find they follow the constitution and don't check passport.

[dpark]

This seems deeply delusional at this point.

[markdown]

As delusional as thinking the 2nd amendment will help "limit the damage bad actors can do when they are in power".

[whimsicalism]

no, it’s actually the same delusion as that one

[cco]

And also according to the DHS is apparently now insufficient to prove citizenship to vote, i.e. goal posts moved.

[arjie]

Is your RealID different? I’ve had one for ages and am not a US citizen. I can’t see how it could be proof of citizenship if I, a non-citizen, has one.

[cco]

I needed to supply all the necessary documents to prove citizenship, yeah. SSN and birth certificate.

Sounds like RealID has other options for proving identity for non-citizens?

[arjie]

I have an SSN, of course, and an Indian passport and my green card. Looking online, a RealID is no guarantee of citizenship because it does not distinguish your ID from mine.

California actually issued RealIDs that weren't actually valid but they cancelled them and followed-up to re-issue them. If you look at the docs for the most recent time I didn't actually need to prove US citizenship (which I cannot do because I am not American - yet) https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/Real_ID_Cancellation

[dataflow]

Edit: sorry, I misunderstood the post.

[moomin]

I think a better way of describing it would be, someone broke into your house. The police said they'd patrol it, but it would take 20 years to set up. In those 20 years, no-one broke into your house. You might suspect they had other reasons for wanting to patrol outside your house.

[continuational]

The parent post is saying that the officer didn't show up for 20 years, with no burglaries in your neighborhood in between.

[iinnPP]

Unmentioned is the effect of having officers watch your home the entire time. Which is the tradeoff not worth the hassle for everyone.