[Loic]

Where I live, we have a small park, 500m away. You need to walk through it if you want to get to the city center from the small neighborhood we live in. To protect the wildlife, the lighting system has presence sensors, so as you walk or bicycle through the park, the way/street lighting turns on, you can walk, and just after you, it turns dark again. Really cool, especially the first time I went through it in the middle of the night.

[fhdkweig]

Those things drive me nuts. There is a walking path that I frequent, and I can't use it at night because they are spaced every 20-30 feet. When I am not under them, they are off and my eyes adjust to the darkness and as I pass under one it flips to full daytime brightness and blinds me. As soon as I walk away from it, everything goes dark again, but my eyes had adjusted to the daytime brightness of the lamps. And I know that in 30 feet, I have to do it again, for the next couple of miles.

[Loic]

The timing and brightness is well adjusted, it feels natural, like a friendly ghost taking care of you.

[fch42]

unfortunately they never are. Brightness-adjusted, that is. Everyone installing lighting fixtures these days believes they must be daylight-level bright. The only ghosts you see are afterimages if you happen to look straight at the streetlamp ...

(I find it odd; dark-adapted eyes see a lot, including movement in shadows or low-contrast obstacles - after all, our bodies know how to see well at moonlight levels of illumination. Why are we so keen to kill this ability?)

[arijun]

Because

1) Humans night vision is significantly worse than your regular vision. Low light would cause more accidents, eg.

2) The elderly have pretty terrible night vision. Your idea would exclude them from half the day.

[fhdkweig]

The elderly don't generally go to the park for a midnight stroll. Nighttime is the realm of the young.

[arijun]

What? When sunset is at 5pm you want to lock the elderly up in their homes? What about those that have trouble sleeping, like many do? Or those that wake up before sunrise?

This is the kind of thinking that leads to totally inaccessible cities.

[RetroTechie]

Your Park May Vary (YPMV).

[vel0city]

If it gets used a good bit, I wonder if the on/off cycles are even more impactful to the local wildlife than constant but more optimized lighting was in place.

I know if I was trying to sleep a constant source of light is easier to get used to than a randomly flashing source of light. And for nocturnal animals I'd imagine randomly losing the cover of darkness from time to time is probably a lot more stressful than just avoiding the brighter areas.

I'd be interested in seeing data. I really wonder which is better.

[trollbridge]

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to just expect people who want to walk places in the dead of night to wear a headlamp? They're cheap, easy to recharge, and can be adjusted for various brightness levels.

[amiga386]

The problem is not just with people who want to walk places, but people who want to mug/murder/rape those that do.

As an example, in the UK, councils are expected to light commonly-traveled paths, both so path users can see where they're going, and to reduce crime. Unlit paths in city parks are still traversed, and are often a haven for crime.

"Dead of night" isn't the right image. 5PM in winter with clouds (as is typical in the UK) has roughly the same level of natural light as 2AM. People are still coming home from work in conditions where natural light is low enough to lead to accidents and crime.

[culi]

I hesitate to even engage in a conversation about organizing our entire infrastructure/society over such a rare incident, but I'll bite.

Powerful lights are known to actually increase safety risks. Our nightvision is reduced and the shadows of the lights are the most dangerous parts. Perhaps more dangerous than no light at all.

Once city (I can't recall which) had a really cool solution to this where they installed string lights. Lots of small, dim lights don't negatively impact your nightvision, keep the path pretty visible, and don't cause too much light pollution

[adrianN]

TFA claims that lights don’t reduce crime, but I‘d like to see the exact meaning of that statistic (eg dark places are less frequented hence less crime?).

[amiga386]

TFA doesn't even claim that. TFA links to an advocacy website trying to convince authorities to put out less light pollution. It claims improved lighting (presumably brighter) doesn't reduce crime, and it claims a reduction (but not elimination) of lighting doesn't increase crime.

I would say that going from no lighting at all, to some lighting, on urban paths, improves safety (not tripping over unexpected obstacles) and reduces crime (presuming there was any crime while it was unlit). The article doesn't refute that. I would suggest that if a major city decided to eliminate all street lighting, it would be absolute chaos.

[teamonkey]

Nobody is trying to remove all street lighting. There are plenty of practical suggestions on here and in that document about how things can be improved without reducing safety.

[arijun]

From the comment that started this deviation:

> Wouldn't it be more reasonable to just expect people who want to walk places in the dead of night to wear a headlamp?

[PaulHoule]

Lights help criminals see what they are doing.

[naravara]

> The problem is not just with people who want to walk places, but people who want to mug/murder/rape those that do.

This is a completely irrational (though commonplace) fear. Criminals aren’t hiding out in bushes in desolate parks to mug or rape random people. Muggings most commonly happen in side paths off of busy high streets because criminals, being people, like to hang out in stimulating places where they won’t get bored. They’re not going to be donning ghillie suits and lying patiently in wait for however long in uncomfortable brush for a hapless victim to cross their path. The muggings are crimes of opportunity. Rapists are most commonly somewhat trusted friends or acquaintances who have access to people when they’re in vulnerable states in private, protected spots.

Thinking parks and parking lots need to be lit up like Christmas to deter crime is just a veneer of rationalization to cope with the standard childhood fear of the dark. It is not backed by data or evidence. The actual main public safety concerns when it’s dark out are trip-and-fall hazards or collisions with or vehicles who can’t react fast enough when things pop out at them, not muggers and rapists. Having the nighttime environment overly lit actually makes shadows starker and blows out people’s night-vision so they can’t find things. If anything, it makes the edge case where Sam Fischer is hiding in the bushes more dangerous rather than less.

[RetroTechie]

To add a small datapoint in support of the above: I happen to spend many nights in rural areas. Some with towns & nearest neighbours far enough away that nights are truly dark.

Those nights are the safest in my experience. Simply because no thief or mugger would bother to venture out into the middle of nowhere, in the off-chance there's something to be had there. That's assuming they'd even know someone/something to be there! And even if they would, chances are I'd be quickly aware of their presence, or some geese/other birds would announce their presence.

TLDR; Be careful in areas with lots of people, or on the edge of such areas. Places that lack people tend to be safe.

[amiga386]

> desolate parks

Criminals hide out in the dark parts of urban parks, mere minutes away from well-lit, more populated areas of the city. They're not going to get bored. Victims walk through the parks and get jumped, occasionally dragged off into the darker parts.

To give a example: The Meadows in Edinburgh: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/233760765

A park between the university and student accomodation. Very popular with students going home at night. Apart from a few lit paths, entirely dark. Most paths are lined with trees, like so: https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/webimg/b25lY21zOjAxYz...

Here's a small sample of incidents. There are genuinely criminals who hang about in the dark parts of this park, late at night, in order to attack victims. They don't have to wear ghille suits, they need only stand behind the trees.

- 2011: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-1... "Two men who grabbed a young woman before one sexually assaulted her in an Edinburgh park are being sought by police. The 19-year-old woman was walking through the Meadows at 03:30 on Tuesday when she was attacked at a spot north of Melville Drive."

- 2011: https://www.scotsman.com/news/charges-over-sex-assaults-in-m... "Lothian and Borders Police issued an open letter to students and residents in response to the incidents, advising them not to walk alone in the Meadows at night"

- 2012: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-2... "The 30-year-old was walking through Middle Meadow Walk at about 22:30 when two men approached him. One of the men punched the victim in the face, knocked him to the ground and continued assaulting him before taking his personal belongings."

- 2014: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-2... "The 25-year-old was walking near the tennis courts at the east end of the park at about 04:30 on Saturday when he was approached by two men. After asking the man for money, the two attackers punched him several times, causing minor facial injuries, and also tried to steal his watch."

- 2014: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-3... "Steven Davidson, 24, attacked the 19-year old as she made her way home through the Meadows in November 2014. [...] Davidson ran up and grabbed her from behind. [...] The woman had been making her way home just before 07:00 [...] she passed out and came round to find him lying on top of her. He then raped her."

- 2016: https://archive.news.stv.tv/east-central/1374940-three-assau... "Police are investigating after three assaults were carried out on the Meadows in Edinburgh within 15 minutes of each other. In each of the incidents, which took place between 3.10am and 3.25am on Sunday, the attackers robbed or attempted to rob the victims of cash or possessions."

- 2020: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-5... "The attack on the 37-year-old took place on The Meadows at about 23:15 on Saturday"

- 2023: https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburg... "The incident took place at around 4am on Sunday, January 29."

I'm not saying we should floodlight the park. What has helped most is regular police patrols of the park. But I'd be lying if I said the criminals don't hang out in the dark parts of this park, waiting for victims. They do.

[wongarsu]

People associate a lack of lighting with crime

I vaguely remember that studies showed that lack of streetlights does not create crime, but the crime that happens anyways prefers badly lit areas. But from a pedestrian's perspective that's not much relief, you'd still avoid those areas. Which is not what a city planner has in mind for a park

[stouset]

Also part of the issue is that lighting at night creates enormous contrast between dark areas. Even darkness is something our eyes are well-adapted to, and we can see surprisingly well with even a little moonlight. We struggle with alternating bright/dark areas.

[ninalanyon]

No. Unless you expect everyone to always have those things you will need the street lights anyway so why not make them smart and efficient. This especially applies in northern latitudes where it is dark in the evening even before people leave work.

[fhdkweig]

I would consider that ideal, but there would always be the fear of a potential negligence lawsuit if someone got hurt or crimed, so the government considers them necessary.

[redlewel]

Would prefer very dim or red lighting. Also preserves your night vision

[snarf21]

Serious question: Wouldn't it be better to just have them always be on with red light that is much less disruptive to wildlife?

[adrian_b]

The sodium lamps that were ubiquitous for outdoor lighting before LEDs were quite good from this point of view.

Amber LEDs could provide a similar experience.