[cm2187]

I fail to understand the distinction between an ESTA and a visa to be honest. You need to do the paperwork in advance, pay, provide all sort of personal information, and it can be denied, and if approved only for a limited amount of time. Given that both the EU and the UK have reciprocated, it is a fiction that there exists some visa free travel between these 3 zones. And the more hassle you create, the less tourism you will get.

[kdheiwns]

They're identical but countries pretend they're different. I got an evisa when I went to Indonesia and India. For each country, the process involved uploading a picture, filling in some basic details, and paying a fee. I was approved in 30 seconds for each. I'm pretty sure it was automatic.

ESTA is supposed to be a lower hurdle than a visa. But from what I've heard, approvals take longer and quite a few people get rejected.

Countries like to pretend they're still visa free, but honestly, it's just a pain in the ass and I'd rather they call it a visa. It's very, very easy to book a plane to a country, see all info indicating its visa free and you can just go, then right as you're about to head out, you decide to check for the 50th time just to be sure... and it turns out there's some "visa free process" for your country called EDtdjvubHHVJVF or some other random assortment of letters that involves a 2 hour application process and 24-72 hours (business days only) for approval results to come in. A visa would be preferable because it's more transparent.

[iso1631]

ESTAs used to be instant for me, but last time I got one (2023) it took 2 days

The US is particularly bad as you need an ESTA to transit. I had a friend nearly caught out by that on a flight from London to Lima which involved changing in Miami. When changing plane from an international to international flight in most countries you get off a plane, maybe go through security, and then get on another plane. In the US this isn't a thing. You have to immigrate into the country for 20 minutes.

[themaninthedark]

The same rules in Canada and Mexico.

[throw-the-towel]

And the UK I think.

[iso1631]

No, you land at Heathrow you don't go pass passport control if you change onto another international flight. You go through security and then into the departure lounge.

Obviously if you land at Heathrow and fly out of Manchester then sure you have to immigrate, but not at the same airport.

Same at Dubai and Qatar, Helsinki and Frankfurt, Singapore. and Seoul.

Indeed last time I transited Seoul I stayed in a hotel airside for 12 hours before my next flight.

[joshuaissac]

> land at Heathrow you don't go pass passport control if you change onto another international flight. You go through security and then into the departure lounge.

This requires a Direct Airside Transit visa, unless you are a citizen of one of the exempt countries or have a visa/residence permit from certain countries (US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Schengen). Applying for this visa involves going to the local visa processing centre, so it is not an online or on-arrival process, and takes around 3 weeks.

https://www.gov.uk/transit-visa/direct-airside-transit-visa

[twothreeone]

You don't need to visit an embassy for ESTA, for a Visa this in-person interview at the embassy is required.

[kdheiwns]

Other countries have visas and don't require embassy visits. There's no difference between as ESTA and how other countries do visas.

[izacus]

The amount of data you need to provide for ESTA and a B1/B2 US Visa is not remotely comparable - the visa process has way more steps and requirements.

[bluerobotcat]

But then some countries have visas on arrival that are less of a hassle than ESTA.

[cm2187]

That's about to change, they are about to introduce a change that will require bios of all relatives, all social media accounts, email addresses, etc. Haven't looked at a US visa recently but it seems as invasive.

[iso1631]

So it's a "lightweight" visa.

The information you need to provide as an Iranian after a P1 visa is not remotely comparable to a British citizen after a B1 visa either.

[bigfatkitten]

Depends on the visa.

A-1 and A-2 for example require almost nothing beyond a photograph, and a letter saying you’re travelling on behalf of your government.

[izacus]

We're talking about ESTA, which is a visa waiver equivalent of B1/B2 combo.

[tremon]

"you" being the operative word. The rest of the information will just be supplied by your government instead of yourself.

[advisedwang]

To apply for a visa, even a B1 visa, you have to go to a consulate and show them proof of your bank account, property you own, family details, your job and such things (supposedly to show that you are tied to your home company and not secretly trying to immigrate to the US).

Governments don't even have all this information about their own citizens reliably even if they wanted to hand it over.

[everfrustrated]

It's to get around bilateral arrangements where counties have mutually agreed to not require visas (IE visa-on-arrival).

This allows doing visa type checks but not technically violating the agreement as it's not called a visa.

[sib]

I spent around 20 minutes arguing with ChatGPT when I asked the question and we eventually came to this conclusion... It's a visa that's not a visa.

[ExoticPearTree]

ESTA and visas are two different things:

- with ESTA, your country of origin is "trusted" and individuals in general undergo a lower level of scrutiny at a US port of entry.

- with a VISA, you country of origin is "not trusted" and individuals are granted the right to travel to the US after they undergo interviews at an US embassy and get approved.

Neither is a right to enter the US. Just a right to be transported by air/ship to a US port of entry. If the CBP lets you in it is a different story.

This is the US version. Other countries have their own rules.

[raverbashing]

And only one gives you a sticker on your passport

(And funnily enough the Visa lasts for a longer time)

[markdown]

Depends on the country. Eg. New Zealand and Australia don't put a visa sticker in your passport.

[dilyevsky]

If you try actually filling out DS-160 and going through the rest of the process the difference will become really clear.

[account42]

Yeah is a far cry from other countries where you can just show up and maybe fill out an A5 form on arrival.

[christkv]

All it means that you do not have to go to the embassy and stand in line

[basisword]

I've never had to do this for a visa for countries that required one. It was all online.

[izacus]

For US visa you absolutely have to.

[iso1631]

For any US visa you do, and you can't take electronic items or bags with you. Costs a lot more too.

A reason I refused to go to Syria a couple of years ago. A colleague who did go said "oh I have a US (i) visa so I'm fine". I asked "how about in 20 years time when you've left a company which will pay for you to have a US visa. He hadn't considered that.

A friend of mine went to Libya on behalf of the US military about a decade ago. He is no longer eligible for a US esta and thus has to get a visa if he goes on holiday.

Last time I went to India I had to get a real visa which involved travelling to an office in London and waiting around for a couple of hours.

It's quite normal for people of "lesser powered" countries who don't have the power of passport that the US and Western European citizens do. Even before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, you would have to fly for hours to a major Russian city a couple of weeks in advance to apply for a visa to visit the UK.

When I went to Pakistan in 2010 it was even worse. Well until I gave up and then used a visa agency which just handled it all for me.

Last time I tried to go to India I went for an electronic visa, and after 7 days of "waiting" they updated it to say "declined". No explanation.

[MarceliusK]

The distinction still matters legally and administratively

[inigyou]

A visa allows you entry, an ESTA doesn't allow you entry but just says you're allowed to travel to the border to see if you'll be allowed entry or not.

It's more for the airline than for you. If you have an ESTA and get refused entry, the airline isn't fined for bringing someone unauthorized to the border.

[rocqua]

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-...

It states regarding a visa: "A visa allows a foreign citizen to travel to a U.S. port-of-entry (generally an airport) and request permission to enter the United States. A visa does not guarantee entry into the United States.

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS), U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officials at the port-of-entry have authority to permit or deny admission to the United States. "

[toymin]

> A visa allows you entry

That's incorrect, holding a B1/B2 US visa only allows you to arrive at the port of entry, the actual permission to enter the country is always left to the border officer interviewing you

[mothballed]

It is legal to show up at a port of entry without any sort of anything. If all it allows you to do is show up at the port of entry it's a worthless scrap of paper.

[khuey]

If you show up at a US port of entry without any sort of anything the default decision is to deny entry (exceptions for Canadian citizens and citizens of a few small islands). If you show up at a US port of entry with an ESTA/visa you will most likely be allowed entry. Refusals are relatively rare.

Commercial carriers such as airlines are also not allowed to transport people who need ESTAs/visas and do not have them to the US, so in practice it's relatively difficult to even get to the port of entry without a visa.

[anvuong]

Not for airlines and international cruise ships with US as destination. The attendants won't let you board unless you have a valid US visas. Carriers get fined if they transport individuals with no proper documents to a US port of entry.

[mothballed]

Airlines are fined for inadmissible passengers. Whether they have a visa or not. If they have no visa but are admitted there is no such fine.

The visa is immaterial to the fine unless it conveys something beyond merely allowing you to present at a port of entry, which is allowed to basically everyone.

[bluGill]

In practice if you have the VISA they will almost always admit you. If you are rejected it generally means they find something at the border.

[raverbashing]

> A visa allows you entry

Nope

It's the same deal as you mention above