[bobbiebarker2]

Good crutch for the weak. I've tripped plenty of times; I'm an atheist; it was great. Next time you trip, you should reflect on your need for "spirituality" and what it says about whatever is going on or not going on between your ears. One of the most amazing things about humans is their imagination and ability to convince themselves of almost anything. In my opinion, one of the points of doing psychedelics is to recapture your own imagination and flush out all the BS that other people have put in there to capture your mind. And here you are telling people to pour more programming back in there in the form of "spirituality."

[pfannkuchen]

I’m also an atheist, but just looking at the huge amount of anthropological information we have, from hunter gatherer bands to large scale civilizations, I am quite sure that a perception of god-like and spirit-like entities is built into the hardware layer in humans. That doesn’t make them “real”, of course, but it doesn’t seem to matter much whether or not they are real, and deleting them from life because they aren’t literally real is an ongoing experiment.

[semolino]

Yes, perception of entities during psychedelic experience is unhinged paredolia: psychedelic substances obliterate the squelch for our pattern recognition systems, of which paredolia is one. Deepdream slugdogs are sort of a synthetic analogue to this.

[N_Lens]

I’m glad that you’ve got it all figured out!

[semolino]

I didn't intend to sound so sure :)

[pstuart]

Also an atheist. Used psychedelic recreationally/recklessly in my youth but that was a long time ago.

Recently returned to psychedelic use to treat depression and the best takeaway I have for the experience is "swimming with God". By God I mean "the Universe as an entity" for lack of better words. Pro tip: ketamine wins out over psilocybin for treating depression.

I did try DMT once a long time ago and saw the machine elves (prior to ever hearing about them) but it felt more like "ROM artifacts" rather than alien consciousness trying to connect.

[temp0826]

Ketamine treats symptoms and is more like a bandaid from what I see, and comes with its own problems (addiction). Psilocybin and ayahuasca when used properly can help you to process and resolve many types of problems (traumas, past drug/alcohol use, sins). But you have to be willing to work (if you can't bear it alone, this is where the curandero or therapist comes in. If that idea doesn't work for you then probably stick to ketamine)

[pstuart]

Everybody's different. I am approaching the problem from multiple angles (pharma, non-pharma); CBT is on the table and I'm open to other non-chemical routes.

Your comment conflates depression with "being sad/hurt". There's biological aspects that no amount of trauma processing (whether talk therapy or spiritual (psilocybin)). Sometimes the machine itself is broken, not the programming.

I've experience significant trauma in my life and, while it shapes my being, is not the basis for my "depression".

Bandaids are valuable tools. I know there are plenty of non-chemical remedies, exercise being a foundational one, that a proper treatment plan includes.

So for everyone, YMMV, but clinical ketamine use has been borderline magical in readily perceptible improvements, with the caveat that it does seem to be temporary. This is a pity, because it's easy to grow mushrooms and DIY in that regard but getting K requires going through expensive gatekeeping.

And to address the addictive concerns of K, for me, the treatments have had their own elements of joy but I see no recreational value for me personally. I've delt with addictive issues in the past and I have no problems facing those particular demons.

[temp0826]

I've been pretty blessed with my path- I've spent the greater part of the last 6 years steeped in traditional ayahuasca (Shipibo) work and it has convinced me that there is very likely something at the root that is not biological/genetic/structural in nearly all cases (the exceptions being schizophrenia/bipolar). The issue is that nearly no one is so blessed to be able to take off for the months/years it requires to actually get there. It's a huge commitment, and to support the lifestyle needed to live free of deep depression can require more changes than most are willing to make. In any case I did not mean to denigrate your own journey with my comment and apologize for it- I am glad you've found something to get your head above water and live.

[pstuart]

I know that there was no ill intent but it certainly seemed to be conflating things.

I know that I am neurospicy and seen extreme evidence of same in family members. I have my grief, and the ongoing worry of wasting my life and all that fun stuff. That part feels like various forms of therapy would help, but there's other aspects that are just flat out biochemical failures. It's an adventure in how to deal with all the above the best one can within the given constraints.

What would be extra helpful is to not do it alone, but alas, one can't always get what one wants, or needs.

[crent]

The bastardization of the term “spiritual”/“spirituality” has done deep damage to the collective psyche. The view that spirituality is following dogma rather than an exploration of the ineffable from your own subjective experience is a widespread failure of communication.

[pstuart]

Agreed. I use the term as "a sense of connectedness" rather than "seeing God"

[hankbond]

> one of the points of doing psychedelics is to recapture your own imagination

this also is my takeaway as to the primary utility. its so easy to accumulate ideas about how things _must_ be represented over time. every so often (maybe 5-10 years?) its probably good to have a way to shave them off and re-expose the surface.

[poncho_romero]

I'm surprised someone as enlightened as yourself can't imagine a person coming to spirituality themselves.

[sjs382]

You define "spiritually" differently (more narrow, for one) than the person you're replying to.

[colordrops]

What does "spirituality" mean exactly and why is it so offensive to you?