[xvxvx]

I spent 2 weeks in the UK recently and they are light years ahead of the US in terms of veganism and cruelty free products. I was actually quite shocked about how many options the grocery stores had and how almost every restaurant had a vegan option, or even a vegan menu.

The trend in the US has been to hide the word ‘vegan’ from consumers and bury it in their website somewhere. Not so in the UK. Brands seem super happy about showing which products in their selection are vegan. No list of ‘secretly/accidentally vegan’ products over there, they happily let you know right in the packaging.

People there are generally more aware of veganism too. No need to explain what it is like I constantly do in the US. ‘Can vegans eat eggs?’ What part of ‘no animal products’ don’t you understand?

[SuperNinKenDo]

I was kind of surprised when I traveled to NY and SF from Melbourne. I knew Melbourne was fairly up there in vego/vegan friendliness, but took it for granted that NY and SF would be a cakewalk. Hardly appalling, but there were times I could not eat anything on the menu at some places and I'm only vegetarian, and in many instances I had only a single option. Was a little strange.

[xvxvx]

Austin, TX had a reputation for being very vegan friendly until COVID hit and many small businesses shut down. Now it’s as bad as anywhere else.

I went on a hike at a national park in Scotland a few months ago, and they had a small cafe there with limited options for everyone. Even they had solid vegan options though. Blows my mind that this cafe was more welcoming than the majority of restaurants in a major liberal city.

[myvoiceismypass]

I can confirm that SF is less vegan-friendly today than it was a decade ago. It is quite a bummer.

[dleink]

The trends in NYC are kinda pro-meat but if you're a day-to-day vegetarian or looking for it, there's plenty. I can definitely see showing up at a NY restaurant and everything on the menu having beef tallow in it somehow.

[conception]

That’s interesting. I wonder if that’s a byproduct of the strong Indian influences? I would imagine its popular there as well.

[kurthr]

Hindu drink milk and eat cheese, butter, and honey. Not vegan.

[orbisvicis]

I know vegans who consume dairy/eggs once they become responsible for the husbandry of those sources.

[Imustaskforhelp]

There is a concept that my maternal grandmother had that they would always having their own husbandry (cows/buffalos) within her village and yes, they didn't eat eggs as well.

My maternal grandfather was a teacher which was a really prestigious job at that time, the only reason that they had their own cows was because of the belief. Reflecting upon it now, I believe it to be a good faith belief, they took care of the animals as well in terms of personal care from what I've heard of stories growing up, my mother still remembers some of the cows/buffalos and their names and other things so that's nice to hear as well :)

[zxexz]

I wish this form of Veganism was more well-known. I know a few Vegans who went down a similar path and who were told by a few people they were no longer Vegan. They took the easier path and stopped calling themselves Vegans, which I thought was sad given their objectives when becoming Vegan were clear from the get-go.

[constantius]

How is this veganism? Or a form of it?

It's by definition not vegan to consume animal products. I'm happy that the term is considered so virtuous that people want to self-identify as such (I've even heard meat-eaters say they're vegan "except from time to time"), but I don't think it's intolerant/bigoted to simply look at the definition.

[aziaziazi]

Here's the definition from the guys behind the word "veganism":

> Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals

https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism

The short definition you're talking about is abridged for time saving, it miss the essence ["for the benefit of..."] and the necessary feasibility adaptations ["as far as is possible and practicable"].

[BobaFloutist]

Basically, if you're vegan because you object to industrial farming practices, and value animal welfare, eating animal products (or even meat) that you personally produced, while personally overseeing the animal welfare and farming practices doesn't necessarily violate your values.

I get that in a literal sense you wouldn't be vegan anymore, but if you're maintaining the same ethical framework that led you to veganism, it's not unreasonable to want to express that.

[Eddy_Viscosity2]

> It's by definition not vegan to consume animal products

Definitions can change, especially when it comes to personal beliefs of what is right and wrong. Christianity, for example, has split countless versions as people redefine what it means to them. Yet they all still call themselves Christians.

[kurthr]

I think it's often called ovo-lacto vegetarian. There are also pescetarians.

[Imustaskforhelp]

I wish more Vegans were able to accept this form of spectrum that you are talking about. Food is quite a social thing.

JaidenAnimation has done a great video[0] summarizing something like this of her vegan journey and exactly this type of nuance as well, I highly recommend checking it out

Let me give you a personal example as well, I am Hindu and Milk is very very preferred where I live. Due to my taste preference, I dislike Milk but I am really expected to have something milk based so I like Yogurt.

Even just this small act of preference of yogurt rather than Milk which could seem pretty small has genuinely left my relatives asking many many questions and I am sometimes forced to drink milk when I go to people when I would prefer otherwise because of social pressure.

I can probably take vegan yogurt if I particularly want so but we take milk fresh from the milkman who owns the cow in their house. where I live, the way people treat animals in their house is a very ethical point of view, its basically like how pets are except they help in livelihood/income

So I have some sympathies to people who you are talking about. There is enough social pressure from the people around you.

More broadly speaking, Veganism might perhaps land better as a spectrum rather than a binary switch. It has a lot of things going for it which could help its future but at the same time, it gets a large amount of flack from a loud minority and bad clips

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gKJ9mMPuIQ

[akdor1154]

Jains would be vegan though i assume?

[kurthr]

I don't know any Jain well, but I believe they drink milk and fermentation products, but do not consume honey. Open to correction.

[wtmt]

Jains in India are heavy consumers of dairy products. They consume honey too. Most of them would avoid vegetables that grow underground and avoid the use of leather. They’re generally a bit closer to orthodox Hindus in practice.

[PeterHolzwarth]

I think veganism in America went through a popular phase, then simply faded as a pop concept. Perhaps your experiences in the UK merely reflect that, there, it is just going through a temporary uptick of fad.

[constantius]

I always found it weird when people confidently speak from the wrong end. And the crab mentality of "it's only good there temporarily, then it'll.be the same shit as here" is tiring.

If you had lived in the UK, you'd understand that it's not about temporary vegan menus in restaurants but about the whole country, even in a chain in the middle of nowhere, having vegan alternatives and packaging for years and years.

[userbinator]

People have gotten sick of the constant virtue-signaling.

[kubb]

That would suggest a fundamental difference in practical ethics between the two cultures.

It sounds like people over there in America don’t do things because they enjoy doing them or because they’re convinced that those are the right things to do, but rather they do them to impress others or improve their social standing.

It doesn’t sound right to me, I mean a culture can’t be so totally obsessed with the self.

[drivingmenuts]

> It doesn’t sound right to me, I mean a culture can’t be so totally obsessed with the self.

One of our (the US) early political mottoes is "Don't Tread On Me" and it has a flag.

And, yes, we can be and to varying degrees, are. Which is why we can't get along with ourselves very well, much less everyone else.

We're tetchy.

[kubb]

Right, but that would mean the „Don’t tread on me” motto is also a type of persona assumed (like veganism) by people who like being perceived as tough and unruly because that’s respected.

(I guess „persona” would be a better word for it than „the self”.)

[InsideOutSanta]

I think you've pinpointed the reason, although unintentionally: the US is so focused on culture wars that people can't visibly follow a vegan diet without being attacked for it.

[mold_aid]

Yes, people in the US definitely have trouble with virtue.

[Leonard_of_Q]

You forgot 'signalling' which is what people in the West - not just the USA - are tired of. I know I am tired of it and I'm neither an American nor in the USA.

Stating that a whole country has problems with virtue is rather stigmatising and something you'd complain about if it were about any country in what some have taken to call the "global South".

[customguy]

> You forgot 'signalling' which is what people in the West - not just the USA - are tired of.

No, that's implicit. If I'm tired of rock music, that mostly comes into play when I'm exposed to it in some way.

> Stating that a whole country has problems with virtue is rather stigmatising

Speaking of, someone expressing their virtue -- and caring for the well being of sentient beings simply is, it's a capacity, and it annoys the people who lack it, because it raises the question why they lack it -- isn't automatically them "signalling" anything. That's just an attempt to stigmatise it.

recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48922972

If we don't have empathy with victims of that, who cares what we are "tired of"? We can torture animals, but don't stigmatise us, and don't talk about how you try to avoid feeding the systems that lead to animals being tortured. You can talk about how much you like your other new hobbies, but not this one. You cannot even wear a pin. Because we're so tired and you're so oppressive, with your virtue and your signals. Have empathy with my fear of empathy, basically.

I'm not even vegetarian but I'm more tired of that than them, because it's both evil and stupid, and projects that on vegans.

> something you'd complain about if it were about any country in what some have taken to call the "global South".

Many things play into this. One is the hesitation to punch down versus a superpower that spent many, many millions to signal, to broadcast, their virtue into the whole world for decades.

[mold_aid]

>is rather stigmatising

Oh you went with the "rather" instead of the "quite" that's interesting. Anyway if vegans want to say "I am vegan" you'd profit from taking just a second to ask yourself why you get reflexively pissy about it.

[constantius]

The sibling comment has more eloquent advice, but I'll add that you're neck deep in an echo chamber if that's how you react. Being vegan, mentioning that a country is difficult to live in as a vegan, in a thread about veganism, is not about signaling. Ask the next vegan who'd been to a Global South country instead of imagining people in your head: if it was a pain, they'll say it was a pain, there is no commentary about virtue in there.

[PeterHolzwarth]

And then they get un-sick of it. Fads come and go, constantly re-inventing themselves and getting rediscovered.

[maxerickson]

Your comment demonstrates the uselessness of the concept by doing the thing it is sick of.

[bestouff]

It's been there for decades.

[PeterHolzwarth]

It's been everywhere for decades - that's not the point. It's fadishness that is what may be going on here: restaurants are the tip of the spear of new trends.

[bestouff]

Yeah sure. The world is full of (working) right-wing propaganda. People with "differences" (be it skin color or food taste) won't be catered for. So veganism will probably falter like DEI or other progressive initiatives.

But right now I don't think it's the case yet in the UK.