[ihsw]

If you have been reading the news about Windows 11 then I will enlighten you -- they view the Windows 11 consumer business as a cost center that must be mitigated.

As such, all manner of monetization has been approved and it will continued to be approved without regard for user experience.

This article obviates that this is not an LG problem, it is a Microsoft problem.

Also, don't fool yourself if you think this won't come to the Linux world.

[Grombobulous]

Just look at Microsoft’s revenue breakdown that they publish. Windows revenue is alarmingly small.

I don’t think it’s a loss leader but Microsoft gets almost nothing from OEM Windows licenses and basically nobody buys it retail.

This is not coming to the Linux world. The moment this sort of thing happens, distros get forked.

[geon]

Aren’t ms completely dependent on consumer windows for mindshare?

I doubt anyone would bother getting into programming with ms tech unless they just happened to run it on their desktop.

[ufmace]

I don't think they are anymore. The vast majority of ordinary person computer/internet use has already moved to smartphones, tablets, smart TVs and other such devices. It seems nowadays many people don't even know the basics about how to use a desktop operating system.

[Aerroon]

I find this hard to believe considering how bad the UIs are on phones and TVs. Even google.com does not offer feature parity between their desktop and mobile websites.

My phone still didn't come with a functional paint or notepad apps. Google docs is a horrible experience on phones (but at least it works now - a few years ago it was straight up unusable).

And you're telling me that this is the only computing platform for a lot of people? How is everything still so unusable about it then?

My experience tells me that everything mobile is basically an afterthought outside of a few dozen websites and I guess phone games.

[embedding-shape]

> My phone still didn't come with a functional paint or notepad apps [...] And you're telling me that this is the only computing platform for a lot of people? How is everything still so unusable about it then?

Not to sound harsh, but you come at this with an somewhat old perspective, the same one I grew up with too and probably also retain too much of.

People don't open their phones looking for something like paint or notepad apps, they want a messenger/social network to connect with their family/friends which is most likely why they got the phone in the first place, and if they're "advanced", they'll even edit their own photos and images but via a whole host of various phone image editors. Sometimes the social network offers those things too, sometimes as separate apps, people use that sort of stuff instead of looking for "paint.exe" or tools to crop/edit images in a more, I guess "crude" way that you and I might be used to and favor still today.

[Aerroon]

I don't open my phone for notes or paint either, but sometimes I really need it. And then I am endlessly frustrated that the stuff we do get by default has half-baked functionality.

For example, the gallery app's image editor on my phone doesn't let me cut out a piece from the middle and then let me pull the sides together. Eg if I have a picture of a table and I want to cut out a certain column. This is super easy to do in paint, but on my phone I need to look for extra (ad-riddled) apps for that.

Also, there's no way that phones are mainly for social networks. It's estimated that there are 5.5-6 billion smartphone users.

[ufmace]

All that stuff actually works decently well on mobile... as long as one is willing to accept certain compromises.

Note-taking works fine, in Google Keep, Apple Notes, or some other cloud equivalent. Yup, your data is in the cloud and owned by one of those tech megacorps, but most people just don't care.

Basic photo editing works okay too, in Google Photos, Apple Photos, etc. Ditto the cloud stuff.

What really makes most desktop users outliers is caring about, or even being aware at all of the concept of, actually owning your own data versus trusting cloud providers for everything.

[Aerroon]

Does it work fine though? Because I haven't even heard of Google Keep, let alone have it installed.

If I need to take some notes I can't even imagine going to search through a store to find a note taking application since that should be a built in feature of every consumer OS.

The same goes for Google Photos. And I imagine that Google photos also doesn't let you edit it a column in the middle of a table. It's trivial to do in real life or in MSpaint or any real image editor but somehow exceeds the limits of mobile apps.

[mrob]

That fact that you're posting on a web forum makes you an outlier. Most people only passively consume, and mobile devices are good enough for that.

[brewdad]

My kid was in a ECE program at a top 25 university. About a third of their first year classmates did not know how to navigate a desktop file system. And these are the kids interested in tech. It’s far, far worse for the ones with no interest in tech. Tablets in school have left a generation of kids behind where the previous generation was.

[Aerroon]

I wonder if this is an American thing, because my nephews regularly use desktops and laptops. Tablets never caught on here though.

I was worried about this when they were younger though. The youngest played a lot of games only on a phone, but even he seems to have moved on from that.

[picofarad]

My phone still doesn't have a calculator app. The thought of trying to add one that isnt wolfram alpha is anxiety-producing.

[Obscurity4340]

Calculator Note apps are much better anyway

[smelendez]

Right. Laptops are basically work (or school) tools now for a lot of people. They might have one tucked away that they pull out now and then when they need it, similar to a power drill or a sewing machine. It’s not a daily use device.

I think it helped Microsoft historically that people used their operating systems at home, although even then a lot of people would have learned Windows at work or school first.

[Grombobulous]

Microsoft will happily sell you someone else’s tech stack on Azure.

My macOS-using employer gives much more money to Microsoft than Apple.

Cloud SaaS things they’re using: Entra ID, Power BI, Sharepoint, corporate email (365), OneDrive.

Microsoft applications installed by my employer on my PC: Teams, Office including Outlook, Defender.

Our applications are Java running on Linux and we could migrate 100% of our platform to Azure without any issue if we had a reason to do that.

[eastbound]

MS owns Typescript and NPM and Azure and LinkedIn. I know you meant programming on Windows, but even if Windows disappears, many of us will owe our job to Microsoft.

[VorpalWay]

Dont forget they own github too. The vast majority of open source software is on there these days.

Yes there are other options: gitlab.com, some project specific gitlab instances (freedesktop for example), forejo / codeberg, and the Linux kernel is off doing it's own thing with mailing lists instead. I even come across code on SourceForge every now and then still. But all of these are super niche.

[solarkraft]

They own Typescript? I wasn’t aware that they control the organization, but that ought to be easy enough to fork. NPM is a bigger one, but also not too huge. Azure is only used by people who already have Microsoft/Windows buy-in.

[chuckadams]

They created TypeScript, and maintain it now. It's not exactly a business for them, no one is buying "TypeScript Enterprise" subscriptions. It's all under the Apache License 2.0 and certainly big enough that if they started pulling anything untoward, it would see a fork. Sometimes Microsoft produces an unalloyed good, they're not a monolith.

[embedding-shape]

> They own Typescript? I wasn’t aware that they control the organization,

I genuinely don't know, got curious and went to typescriptlang.org to find some "About" page or "Governance" or something else, but couldn't find anything at all about it. It was exclusively developed by Microsoft for two years, and with no other clear governance/decision structure today as far as I can see, doesn't that exactly mean that Microsoft controls the entire "organization"? It's not clear what "organization" you're referring to either, the GitHub organization? I'd assume that's also 100% Microsoft controlled.

[SinkingRock]

And VS Code, and Github...

[tosti]

Soooo... Not anything we couldn't miss.

[mrob]

>This is not coming to the Linux world. The moment this sort of thing happens, distros get forked.

I installed Debian 13 recently. The first time I opened Firefox ESR (installed by default), I got something that looked like adverts on the home page (banner blindness means I have no memory of what they actually were, only of the feeling of disgust). The Home section of the Settings page had options for "Sponsored shortcuts" and "Sponsored stories" enabled by default. Changing a default setting is a lot easier than forking software, yet it was not done.

[Grombobulous]

Rather than complaining to you that Firefox isn’t Linux, I’ll point out that Firefox is a great example.

LibreWolf was forked to deal with the exact situation you describe.

[ekianjo]

thats entirely on Firefox

[account42]

No, it's also on Debian for not disabling/removing that crap. Shielding the user from crapware (both the accidental and intentional kind) is the entire reason distribution maintainers exist in the first place.

[necovek]

As long as you have a computer that can run unsigned software, or software signed by yourself, this won't come to Linux as non-optional features: you can always recompile your kernel removing things you do not want like this.

[tosti]

And before anyone goes "but I can't patch that!", all it takes is one clever guy to write the patch.

This is also why the bazaar model of Linux distributions is beneficial. You get more choice.

[numpad0]

Ubuntu snap

[drnick1]

Just use Debian. It's just as easy to install and use nowadays, and does not come with bloatware/malware.

[ErroneousBosh]

Neither does Ubuntu.

[account42]

Don't know about now but it has in the past.

[NopIdoN]

snaps auto-update

[ErroneousBosh]

Yes, and?

[treyd]

> don't fool yourself if you think this won't come to the Linux world.

I'm curious what you mean by this. I'm not necessarily rejecting the point, but I also don't see how this could happen without substantial shifts in the industry first.

[evilduck]

Yeah, curious here too. Torvalds would need to pass first I think, and I just don't see other major players like RedHat, Google, Canonical, or Valve introducing this themselves or agreeing to do it in aggregate. And as end users we could still fork and patch it out. Some shitty company might try but I don't think it would stand.

[mixmastamyk]

Lots of bad ideas have come to Linux, like non-consensual telemetry, mobile-first interfaces etc. Don’t believe? Run OpenSnitch.

Traditional CADT means features get lost over time.

It is not immune from these forces, just not a focus by the powers that be. Fewer developers remember the good old days of Y2Kas as well, meaning they don’t resist these forces instinctively, since they grew up in iOS captivity.

[hparadiz]

Telemetry is anything including a process list. If you're talking about eBPF it's also used for debugging and server fleets and recently in basic task managers. Any data can be used to take a magnifying glass to the system. The kernel has literally thousands of toggles for this from networking to threading. And yes a program can see what your kernel supports and yes it can refuse to run if you're not running a specific kernel with a specific feature. How do you think programs like open snitch even work?

https://github.com/evilsocket/opensnitch/wiki/monitor-method...

[mixmastamyk]

How do you think they work?

I’m talking about mostly about consent above, maybe wasn’t clear.

[kstrauser]

It hasn’t come for the much larger Mac world yet.

I think literally the only driver I’ve installed for any accessory of any kind is the config utility for a Stream Deck. I certainly never install mouse (thank you Steermouse!) or printer drivers, let alone a monitor driver of all things.

[account42]

> Also, don't fool yourself if you think this won't come to the Linux world.

What Linux world? It may come to Ubuntu (they already tried other monetization crapware) but win Linux you always have other options.