[nchmy]

I'm surprised by the "you are not allowed to be surprised, ever" rule. It puts me off of recurse entirely.

I shouldn't even need to explain why as it should be self-evident that policing/banning a completely natural and sometimes highly beneficial emotion/reaction is beyond problematic.

It seems like an XY problem - they implemented it to solve a genuine problem, without understanding the problem.

Like, the canonical example they give is

> Dan: What’s the command line?

> Carol: Wait, you’ve never used the command line?

Surely everyone can imagine at least two versions of Carol.

1. Condescending and dismissive. Indeed, that's not behaviour anyone should be tolerating.

2. Thrilled to be able to introduce someone to something new. She might follow that question up with "oh come on over here, let me show you! This will change your life." and proceed to try to teach terminal stuff. Isn't this the best sort of teacher, someone who is infectiously passionate about something?

Dan may still respond negatively to Carol2, but that's Dan's problem - he needs a therapist of some sort to address whatever insecurities he has.

Now, you might say "The rule is about FEIGNED surprise", which is Carol1. But it explicitly says

> When someone acts surprised when you don’t know something, it doesn’t matter whether they’re pretending to be surprised or actually surprised.

Then goes on to describe the version of Dan that needs therapy

> The effect is the same: the next time you have a question, you’re more likely to keep your mouth shut. An accurate name for this rule would be no acting surprised when someone doesn’t know something,

No, that's not how I or any other well-adjusted person would react.

A better name for the rule is "don't be a dick. Everyone is here to help each other learn and grow" (and there might be a separate rule/policy/resource about how people who have not yet learned how to positively and productively control their emotions - which I am not denigrating, simply pointing out reality - can seek assistance with that as well).

In the end, IT DEPENDS. But there's apparently no room for such nuance at Recurse...

[dxdm]

There's no rule against being surprised, and especially not against _ever_ being surprised. They are asking people not to express surprise, real or not, when responding to a question, as a courtesy to the person asking. Like: Keep your surprise in check in situations when it's not helping.

I don't think that's too much to ask, just like it's generally considered preferable to not chew with your mouth open when in company, or talk to people with food in your mouth.

They even acknowledge that they expect these rules to not be followed all the time.

I'm surprised that you read it as a general prohibition of being surprised. ;)

Edit: Sorry, wrote my reply before I saw your substantial edits where you clarify your position and distinguish between "positive" and "negative" surprise. I agree there's a better way express surprise. The rule clearly wants people to avoid putting other people down by creating a feeling of "wow, how can you not know this". That's the spirit of the rule, and I guess it could be expressed better. I don't think they'd have a problem if someone managed to turn the surprise into a positive, but to do that, it's good to be mindful that it's often perceived negatively.

[nchmy]

Sorry for the ninja edits. Writing from phone and didn't think there'd be people replying right away.

Seems like we're in agreement. But I reiterate that it's not a good rule if it should be regularly broken, for the good.

Thus, for a project that's been around for seemingly a very long time, it's hard to imagine that they haven't had ample time and feedback to vastly improve the wording of it all. Thus, they seem to be content that it expresses exactly what they want it to.

[dxdm]

I don't think that the rule should regularly be broken. That's not what they say, and it's not what they mean. The strongest interpretation is: err on the side of not acting surprised at people's questions, because it tends to put people off asking them.

I do think you're simply reading their rule in a way that's not intended by them. Could the rule be written to convey the intent more clearly? Yes, I think so. Is it only their own responsibility how the rule is interpreted? No, I don't think so.

The hacker news guidelines ask us to:

> respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

This is good advice in general. It is your choice to pick an the interpretation that you disagree with the strongest, and subsequently use it to condemn them: "puts me off entirely", "no room for nuance", and (paraphrasing:) it's on them to prevent me from interpreting the rule in the most severe way.

No. The spirit of the rule is clear. The nuance is there. What you do with it, that is all you.

[zahlman]

> I do think you're simply reading their rule in a way that's not intended by them.

I share a similar apprehension, although it's hard to put into words exactly. Across the entire document, really. Like, it's clearly well intended, and not too bad of a match for things I would advocate myself. But at the same time it's suggestive of an impossibly high standard, and I have trauma from seeing "standards that can be interpreted as impossibly high" being applied inconsistently.

Especially the concept of "no subtle -isms": too often have I seen one side of a discussion accused of "-isms" they couldn't understand, while "-isms" they found more sympathetic/obvious went unnoticed. (That's, er, tangentially related to how I ended up making an account here in the first place.)

[nchmy]

Yes, agreed. The document is dripping with red flags - I only called out the surprise rule, but could have criticized the rest.

It may very well be a wonderful environment there, but I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if people get accused of improper behaviour that either didn't even happen, or the vast majority of the world would be perfectly in support of.

[dxdm]

I understand the apprehension, and I agree that rules should be as clear as possible and not be applied inconsistently. Hoewever, I take exception to the suggestion that the mere existence of a rule means that it will be applied wrong.

There is a difference between saying "I worry that these rules are too open for interpretation" and "these rules only pretend to be sensible and fair, they are clearly intended as weapons made in bad faith, the jury is rigged and I will not even consider any other interpretation". The first point is open and constructive, the other rejects other perspectives outright and dismisses the possibility of understanding and compromise. You're making the first point; the comments I replied to above seem essentially to be doing the latter, and that's what I'm arguing against.

I don't really see a difference between applying maximalist intepretations of rules to treat people unfairly on the one hand, or on the other, using maximalist interpretations of rules to dismiss good-faith rules _a priori_, that is, to use a certain reading of rules to accuse people of conspiring to use them in a certain way. How on earth are you going to make any rule that is immune to either?

In fact, I think both are the exact indentical failure to not be a dick, by the same method, just approached from opposing sides. They're born of the same inflexibility, the same uwillingness to extend other people some credit, and I do not envy anyone who has to deal with either of them as a result of trying to bring people together for some common good.

[zahlman]

> Hoewever, I take exception to the suggestion that the mere existence of a rule means that it will be applied wrong.

I won't speak for nchmy, but I didn't intend to suggest that.

[nchmy]

Agreed - the rule does not say, nor do they mean that the rule should be broken regularly. I was saying that because it is true, because it's not a good rule as written.

Once again, I'm reading (and quoting!) the rules exactly as wrttien by them.

> it doesn’t matter whether they’re pretending to be surprised or actually surprised

Moreover, like the sibling to this comment, I take exception to the entire document but didn't bother to expound on the rest.

Another particularly concerning excerpt

> You should not be afraid of breaking a social rule. These are things that everyone does, and breaking one doesn’t make you a bad person. If someone says, "hey, you just feigned surprise," or "that’s subtly sexist," don’t worry. Just apologize, reflect for a second, and move on.

Once again, no room for nuance, discussion etc. If someone concludes that you've broken a rule, shut up and apologize. Don't dare ask how/why, let alone disagree and try to start a discussion about the topic.

This is an environment in which professional victims/sociopaths could thrive. I've been baselessly accused many times of racism and sexism in places like this, which is not only laughable if you knew the context, but the other parties are the ones who weaponize their false victimhood in order to be sexist and racist (and corrupt).

It may very well be a wonderful environment there. But the rules, as written, seem like they're better suited to some sort of trauma-recovery facility, where everyone is enormously fragile and it is therefore extremely prudent to err egregiously on the side of "safety". But that, of course, is by definition not a healthy environment.

Once again, it would be simple to re-write or, perhaps better, replace the rules such that you don't need such ambiguity, nuance, explanations, debate etc... I already did it for one. Another such modification would just be a simple "no politics or religion" rule, which is common in hostels worldwide. Instead the opt-in rule for such topics just invites a mess.

They evidently want the rules to be as they are at this point.

[dxdm]

(I replied to the sister comment to yours, because it was there first, but it's essentially a reply to you, as well.)

[applfanboysbgon]

> In the end, IT DEPENDS. But there's apparently no room for such nuance at Recurse...

"One thing that often surprises people about the social rules is that we expect people to break them from time to time."

Sounds like there's plenty of room for nuance. They're guidelines. That you spent several paragraphs considering and articulating the difference between a positive social interaction and a negative one means the guideline is probably a good one, even if they didn't bother to write several paragraphs of nuance for each point themselves (which is perfectly reasonable, because brevity has its own value).

---

Rate-limit edit:

> That they haven't done so in 15+ years suggests that they think the rule is well-written.

Or it suggests they know more about what social problems actually arise in their community. Your 'vastly better' suggestion of "Don't be a dick" is so vague as to be a completely meaningless guideline, and someone reading that could easily end up doing the condescending surprise act without thinking they're a dick. The purpose of the rule is to call attention to a specific behavior they likely see often to make you think twice about it.

[nchmy]

But the fact remains that the rule is terrible. It's not about whether they tolerate transgressions (they'd better). Its that the rule SHOULD BE broken, regularly. If a rule should be regularly broken, it's not a good rule.

I wrote a brief alternative that serves vastly better and doesn't need paragraphs of nuanced explanation, and I didn't even put much thought into it.

That they haven't done so in 15+ years suggests that they think the rule is well-written.

[pjg1]

> 2. Thrilled to be able to introduce someone to something new. She might follow that question up with "oh come on over here, let me show you! This will change your life." and proceed to try to teach terminal stuff. Isn't this the best sort of teacher, someone who is infectiously passionate about something?

I wouldn't expect an infectiously passionate person to start their sentence with "wait you don't know this" and instead say "let me show you!" immediately.

This rule helps me differentiate between people who are genuinely trying to help v/s those who's primary motive is to show off and then maybe help.

[cobbzilla]

“No surprises” is an effective shorthand for “manage expectations”

Folks who don’t understand that are either not hired or don’t last long. Pedants won’t get past the phone screen.

[jambalaya8]

I think there are some situations where Carol's response would be appropriate, and some where it would not.

In general, I get your comment though. Coding is getting more and more like this.