[snickerbockers]

Ancient literature is so fucking wild because the value systems were unlike anything that exists today.

My favorite example is in the old testament when God sends a couple angels to Lot and a large mob of sodomites (people from the city of sodom, although they probably satisfy both definitions of the word) converge upon him and demand to rape the angels. Lot immediately attempts to negotiate by offering to let the mob to rape his own daughters in lieu of the angels. The mob denies this generous offer so the angels drive them away under their own power, thus calling into question why Lot felt the need to offer his daughter's unto a large mob of literal sodomites.

The angels tell him to leave because God is planning to destroy the entire city, and somehow Lot is actually being spared since he is somehow the only righteous man in Sodom. He is warned not to look back at the city as he departs, but his wife foolishly disobey this instruction and is immediately transformed into a pillar of salt as one would expect.

Then later they're out in the wilderness where there are no men and the two daughters are getting hot and bothered so they drug the recently-widowed Lot and rape him, becoming impregnatedin the process.

In all fairness I think the implication behind that last plot development was a sort of abramhic version of karma since Lot is an extremely unsympathetic character despite somehow also being righteous enough to merit being spared the fires of sodom. However given what I know about how incest usually works in the modern world i can't help but wonder if (assuming this is at least partially based on true events) we're actually just getting Lot's side of the story after he inexplicably emerges from the wilderness with two grandchildren and no other sources of paternity.

Anyways the bronze age is one helluva drug.

[Anthony-G]

As a devout Catholic, I used my confirmation money to buy a bible and read from it every morning. Some parts of The Old Testament were disturbing but this story really shocked my younger self. I found it to be both horrific and bizarre.

Until I started reading the bible myself, I had unquestioningly accepted everything my elders (parents and teachers) had told me but reading stories like this made me start to question my beliefs and over the next 15 years I gradually believed less and less (progressing from Catholic to Christian to theist to deist to atheist).

[rsynnott]

I mean, there’s a _reason_ that the Church was historically not keen on the general public reading it for themselves.

[graemep]

There are bits of this that are at odds with current value systems, but also bits that accord with them.

Offering them his own daughters as victims definitely does appal anyone today, and I guess comes from a strong culture of obligation to guests - before your self or your family. Lot did not know they were angels so did not know the alternative existed.

On the other hand they agree with us that gang rape is very wrong.

The pillar of salt thing and the destruction of the city are weird. On the other hand there are many modern examples of people wanting to destroy a place or a people they believe to be wicked.

The incest is presented as something they did, not as morally right.

I like your interpretation of getting Lot's side of the story, but not too literally as this was an oral tradition that was only written down much later.

There are many wildly different value systems in the world today. None that say gang rape is fine, but many will blame the victims.

[nephihaha]

It may be because in those days that daughters were seen as a means of forming ties with various mens' families through children.

Either way, there is a strange ending to this story which is that Lot's daughters got him drunk and seduced him.