[amunozo]

(I am Spanish, so I might be biased)

I think the twp main problems are not who Gibraltar belongs to, but 1. Gibraltar is that it is kind of a tax haven next to one of th areas of Spain with more poverty and unemployment, which is also one of the main drug entrances of the country. This combibation is explosive and really problematic for the people in the Campo de Gibraltar, especially the youth. 2. The people of Gibraltar must also be sovereign and don't want to belong to Spain, so I think we should respect that.

I think this kind of agreement make a compromise, integrating better Gibraltar with the area, making it possible for the people around to benefit from the Gibraltar's economy, bridging Gibraltar and Spain closer, while respecting the sovereignity of the people of Gibraltar.

However, I must say, a similar agreement could be done with Gibraltat belonging to Spain, which I would consider fairer, but still not the most important point.

[iso1631]

I assume you're also in favour of Ceuta and Melilla being given to Morocco over the wishes of the people whos ancestors have lived there for centuries?

[martin8412]

The difference of course being that Gibraltar used to be Spanish, while Ceuta and Melilla never have been parts of Morocco. Portugal has more claim to those two enclaves than Morocco ever did.

[amunozo]

Ceuta and Melilla are part of Spain since the fifteenth century, same as Granada and way older than the Moroccan state.

I am telling that Gibraltar people should decide which country they want to belong to, same thing with Ceuta and Melilla.

[iso1631]

Time and time again the Gibraltar people tell Spain they don't want to be part of Spain

Time and time again Spain complains

Time and time again hypocrites

I don't mind if you believe that "land makes right" or if you believe that "people have rights", but be consistent

[amunozo]

I am saying, for the third time, that the people of Gibraltar are sovereing and have the right to choose. Same with Ceuta and Melilla.

[iso1631]

"a similar agreement could be done with Gibraltat belonging to Spain, which I would consider fairer"

Take your colonial desires and stuff them back in the 18th century where they belong

[amunozo]

What I mean is that it is not that important who Gibraltar belongs to as far as the desire of their population and the surrounding territories are respected. I add the surrounding territories because they are their natural hinterland, independently to who they belong, and therefore there should cooperation for the common good. I could not care less whether it is part of Spain or not, if you are happier with it.

[yoavm]

From my quick search, it doesn't at all seem like the majority of the people living in Ceuta and Melilla wish to be part of Morocco.

[madeofpalk]

I mean they said pretty clearly that they should respect the wishes of sovereignty for Gibraltar, so presumably they would also extend the same to Ceuta and Melilla.

I think in a very abstract sense I agree that exclaves like this are weird and it would be cleaner if they didn't happen (Gibraltar returned to Spain, Ceuta and Melilla returned to Morocco), but that's thinking of this as a systems design problem rather than one that cares about people. I recognise that this is not an empathetic view, and my own opinion is worthless and I hold onto it very weakly.